There is hope yet!

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:54 pm

So, as i probably mentioned, i have a new boyfriend... we've been going out for 7 weeks as of today! He's really sweet and smart and sexy and fun and just an all around great guy.

Now. I'm his first girlfriend. And he doesn't have any dating or sexual experience.

The problem is he doesn't masturbate. Or at least his friends told me he thinks it's a sin.

... shit. That's not cool. It's not a make or break the relationship thing, but it hints at, if you think masturbation is a sin, then so probably is premarital sex. So i was kinda sad that this lessened my chances with eventual sex with him.

But last night we were making out and it didn't get really hot and heavy but still more than before... to the legs wrapped around each other, lying on top of each other, shirtless crazy wild kissing. And... he was...

... Hard. As. A. Rock.

And he did nothing to hide it, nothing to show he was ashamed.

So i'm hoping that means we might have sex eventually, I mean i'd be ok without it but it would suck to be in a relationship that would be so great but would not have sex unless we got married.

Just wanted to share my story, and put the idea out there of masturbation and premarital sex as a sin. what do you think?

~Sara

Tellner · Post by **Tellner** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:53 pm

Hard as rock? I should hope so! With no relief and extended sessions making out with a beautiful, buxom orgasm-deprived woman he'd have to be gay or have glandular deficiences not to be! While his penis may be "the organ without a conscience" there may be enough blood left in the other head to put the brakes on for a while.

If his religion teaches him that masturbation is a sin it will sure as hell tell him that sex outside of monogamous lifelong marriage is wrong. Most people, especially horny young guys who've never had sex, overcome this. You might want to be prepared for emotional effects afterwards. Guilt and withdrawal are possible. So is the opposite. He may decide that you are The One(tm) and be very possessive. Or none of this may happen. Odds are he'll loosen up some and become an enthusiastic fornicator. Besides, isn't there something even more arousing in extended seduction until he becomes mad enough with lust for you to abandon his training?

Are masturbation and sex outside of marriage sinful? Depends on your definition of sin. I think that sex with love is best. The idea that sex with oneself or another is wrong just because the Church and State haven't had a ceremony and extracted license fees from you is ludicrous. Terry Pratchett is this century's reincarnation of Nasreddin[*]. He defines sin as "treating other people, including yourself, as things." I can't come up with a better definition. If the sex you have treats other people as human beings, with respect and care, how can it be sinful?

From my own religious perspective it would probably be better if people were happily married. But that's not possible, practical or desirable for everyone. Even so, unless it causes them to transgress their other obligations (e.g. they're married to someone else), if it leads to love, closeness and union with the Beloved what's the problem? Sexual union, in a mystical sense is Heaven.

Masturbation? If it's a terrible sin then Gehenna is going to be awfully crowded. My (orthodox) rabbi(?!) said that if that is what is necessary for a woman to learn to reach fulfillment in her sexual relations, then it's a Good Thing. (Judaism says that a woman has the statutory right to orgasm and conjugal relations). Again, are you treating yourself as nothing more than a thing? If not, you're probably passing the sin test.

[*] Nasreddin Hoja was a medieval Turkish Sufi. He was blessed and cursed by his Shaykh to experience the highest level of enlightenment that it is possible for a human being to achieve. But he was only able to communicate it in humor and practical jokes. Consequently, he always kept his donkey full of oats and idling at the edge of the village; he left one step ahead of the mob more than once. He's the repository for half the funny stories in the Middle East. Nasreddin's tomb is still a major site for pilgrims. It has an imposing, foot thick, solid timber door with heavy chains and an enormous lock. And no walls

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:02 pm

Hehe, thanks.... yah, i hope that he doesn't do anything he'd regret becuase i totally respect him... And i don't want him to have to become all torn because of me. I'm also hoping he doesn't decide i'm The One because, i think we're too young to tell. Well he's 20 and I'm amost 18. I think that's too young. Still if we end up falling in love and eventually wanting to get married, so be it!

Wow, i didn't think you'd write so much. i don't have the typical views of sin... i want to say theres no such thing as sin. There is of course, wrong - like murder is wrong usually, as is abuse and stealing in many cases. But masturbation and premarital sex? I think God wants us to be happy. And to enjoy sex. Why else would it feel so good? It can be argued that it's teh reward for marriage butr i'm not so sure.
~Sara

Kitsune Bosetsu · Post by **Kitsune Bosetsu** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:48 pm

Hey now... Just don't rush into having sex with him just because you can. You haven't been together that long...

And isn't that still illegal in some states since you're not 18 yet?

Then again this is coming from the person who lost their virginity at 19 to her boyfriend (now husband) after they had been together for 3 years... I honesty lose all respect for people who sleep together after only being together such a short time. I think I was born in the wrong century.

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:26 pm

Nah, i have no need to rush, nor am i planning on it. I try to postpone sex till love. Which we are not at yet. I'm just thinking about the potential for sex.

And the legal age of consent in Maryland is 16.

You're no prude or anything, i feel the same way! I was 16 but it was with my boyfriend of 2 years. It makes sense for you to really love and trust the person!!! And i'm glad that you and your husband waited so long.

~Sara

CottonStar · Post by **CottonStar** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:55 pm

First off, can you be sure that the "no masturbation" claim is completely true? Let's face it, there are many guys who are simply too embarrased to admit they masturbate. Strange but true! Not trying to spark any distrust or anything, but it's at least something to consider.

Secondly, there really is, in my own opinion, nothing wrong with not masturbating or waiting 'til marriage for sex. Hell, I wish I could go without masturbation, but I digress. It's simply something you'll have to work out for yourselves down the road. I wish I could offer more than that, but with my own lack of experience with romance, I can't.

Thirdly, as for the whole "Is masturbation and/or premarital sex a sin?" thing. I personally don't believe it is. Of couse, I also don't have a religous upbringing, so that might very well have something to do with it.

On the other hand, do I believe that something feeling good makes it right? Well, no. There's just something about that concept that doesn't feel right to me. I can't quite find the words to explain why at the moment, but I'm sure one of the more eloquent members here will explain it. Either that, or make some page long rant tearing me a new one *CoughHonorCough*.

And of course, I also leave the disclaimer that all are free to ignore anything I say.

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:24 pm

Nope, i can't be sure. I do realize that.

And i agree, nothing wrong with abstaining. I understand and accept both. Though i think it's probably pretty hard not to masturbate, for a guy anyway.

Right, i don't know if i was really asking if they were a sin, just putting it out there as something to comment on.

Another agreed. It might feel good to rape someone, but it's not right. It might feel good to steal or kill, but it's not right. At a lesser degree, it's not right to have sex with someone then treat them like shit. Is that kind of what you're getting at?

~Sara

Toawa · Post by **Toawa** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:25 pm

tellner wrote:[*] Nasreddin Hoja was a medieval Turkish Sufi. He was blessed and cursed by his Shaykh to experience the highest level of enlightenment that it is possible for a human being to achieve. But he was only able to communicate it in humor and practical jokes. Consequently, he always kept his donkey full of oats and idling at the edge of the village; he left one step ahead of the mob more than once. He's the repository for half the funny stories in the Middle East. Nasreddin's tomb is still a major site for pilgrims. It has an imposing, foot thick, solid timber door with heavy chains and an enormous lock. And no walls

Thank you, Tellner, for the reference. They were quite interesting.

As for the topic at hand, I confess inexperience, and can contribute little.

(I have done a fair amount of reflection upon that fact, especially given the topics of this forum as of late, but for now I will keep them to myself.)

SpasticSage · Post by **SpasticSage** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:05 pm

Let's see, what do I know about relationships in which one one member may have more personal or religious limitations on sexual activity than the other? I know a few things...

For the purposes of this post, and for the purpose of convenience for me, I will refer to your boyfriend as "Bob". Please don't take this personally, it's just quicker if I just assign a name to this nameless, faceless (to me) person.

There may be a number of things going on with your information.

First, Bob's friends may be just joking. They might not actually know anything about his masturbation habits. I, for one, talk much less (that is to say, not at all) about my masturbation habits when I'm talking to people face to face, or to people who know who I am IRL.

Second, maybe Bob is a closet masturbater. It's entirely possible that he was brought up learning that this is wrong, or even that it "could be" wrong. Most people (most of us included) think that there's nothing wrong with it. On the other hand, it's not exactly a selfless act. And if he's particularly religious or spiritual, perhaps this is a reason for him not to trust its acceptability. This might be a reason that if he does masturbate, he might have some guilt about it. It might be weighing heavy on him, or perhaps it's only enough for him to just not talk about it without prodding.

Third, maybe he's a closet non-masturbator. In this day and age of sexual liberation, perhaps he feels that if he's not masturbating, for whatever reason, he'd be perceived as weird, or a prude, or a religious zealout, or whatever. This would be a reason to hide that he doesn't masturbate.

Fourth, perhaps he's not closeted at all, and just doesn't talk about masturbation all that much. Fifth, maybe it's neither of these, or a combination.

That he has an erection is not surprising. Just because a person abstains from sex or masturbation doesn't mean that he doesn't have involuntary reponses down there. He might not feel the need to hide it BECAUSE it's involuntary.

So what does this about his possible abstinence mean for you?

Rule number one. Never, ever, ever, try to pressure or convince Bob to do something he's not comfortable with. This should go without saying for anyone you're dating. But this applies especially for your benefit while you're dating Bob, if he does have some personal limitations involving sex. You see, if you're trying to talk him into sex, you place yourself into the role of the temptress. Whether this is societally fair to you is up for debate (probably it's not), but even if Bob thinks it's not fair to you, the thought could still be in the back of his head. This could serve either to build his resolve against your desire for sex (and possibly against you yourself, as a bad influence), or to cause him lots more guilt if he does ever go past what he's comfortable with. If he decides to go past his barriers, let him come to the conclusion that he wants to do it, and that he is okay with it.

That's not to say don't talk about sex. Please talk about sex with Bob. Maybe not right away, but you should have a two way dialogue about this. Communication is going to be key in this relationship (just like in any). You should know his views on sex before you're going to hit any of his barriers. Perhaps he's come to a conclusion for himself, as to what he thinks is okay, and what he thinks is too far. You should know this. You should also know whether this limit is expected to change over time or not. Or, perhaps he's just going by his gut about what "feels okay". Respect his boundaries, just as you'd expect him to respect yours. It's the 21st century. Just because the male has more resistance to sex than the female shouldn't phase you.

Also, he should know that you would like sex. This doesn't conflict with a previous point. You shouldn't be pressuring him. But it should only take you saying ONCE for him to understand that if he were ever to decide to have sex with you, that would be something that you would like, but you are accepting and respectful of his current position.

Which brings me to my next point: be honest with yourself and with him. Are you okay with Bob's limits (it's not even certain that he has any yet. that's what communication is for)? If he says that he's abstaining, don't say "that's good" unless you really really mean it (which I don't think that you do). Lots of abstaining males get told "that's good" and hear "... but I'd never date a man like that...". Don't say that it's okay unless it really isn't a relationship breaker, and you can avoid whining to him about not getting any.

Perhaps you'll become less okay with a lack of sex further down the road. This can happen, and has in at least one occasion that I know of. You shouldn't need to foresee this (you're not getting engaged now or anything - you're just dating right now). I'm just giving you a heads up.

Whether or not this is a good idea or not is uncertain, but one approach that might be good for Bob is to talk to him about whether he's abstaining because his religion tells him to (perhaps this is true), or because he's choosing to do so (he might not realize this is true, even though it definitely is). Whether or not this helps you, I don't know. But it might help Bob take responsibility for his choices, which is likely a good thing for him.

Also, this advice isn't meant to be acted on all at once, but rather over a long period of time.

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:11 pm

Thanks for your honesty, Toawa, it's ok you can't contribute right now..

And SpasticSage, thank you for your sagely advice. I do appreciate the effort you put into it! I've thought about what you said, though in more abstract terms... But i pretty much agree with everthing you're saying. I would not even consider sex until we're past a certain point in our relationship... and i feel like before we come to it that we need to talk about it. So far that's a ways off. I do want to make sure that i respect and don't breach his boundaries. I do understand that need totally, and it's not like i'm going to dump him if he's not interested. And when thetime comes when we talk, i will say that i am interested but not if he doesn't want to. I think it's gonna be fine. Whatever happens. Because i really like him and care about him and if all we can do is make out, that's ok! It's not like i wanna boink him right now... well i do but i wouldn't do it... just in fantasy...

Oh, and my boyfriend's name is George, by the way.

~Sara

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:56 am

From everything you've ever written, I'm pretty sure you're going to do the most sensible and lovliest thing for both of you.

(By the way, did 7 weeks really go by that fast already? *gulp*)

About that masturbating thing, I'm sure that after an extended "session" with your most lovely self, in which he was "hard as a rock" afterwards - If he really truly doesn't, then I'm positve you were in his dreams that night

Anyways - don't pay too much attention to "friends of," they are notorious for getting things wrong, and passing along misinformation.

Enjoy

Mel Wong · Post by **Mel Wong** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:14 am

Other posters have the whole sex thing well in hand (so to speak), so I'm going to chime in on the age aspect. Given your relative maturity and intelligence, I don't think you're too young for him. S'long as he's a nice boy with a sense of decency (sounds like he might have a little TOO much of the decency though) and treats you well, you two should be fine.

I mean, I met my fiance online when I was 18-ish. He's 7 years my senior. Backtrack it twelve years and it'd be disturbingly loli.

We didn't get into a relationship right off the bat, mind (he got dear-Johned by a girl when we were still good friends) but I kept hinting and flirting, and eventually he got the point. I was at that point still too shy to go, "So, will you fly to Singapore to fuck me?"

He did, though, and we're getting married on the 4th of November OH MY GOD FOUR DAYS AAAAAA.

- Mel

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:32 am

Thanks, Lulu.... I'm sure you're right. What do you mean that fast??? As in it's been a short time to be thinking about sex? or what? *confuzzled* Well, anyway, thanks sweetie.

You're right Mel... we're definitely about the same maturity level... Three years ain't much in college. And you and your fiance are a great example of how things can go so very right! I mean, age difference, meeting online, and country difference, didn't matter enough for you to not come together! And i think it's wonderful you're together now and about to get married!

~Sara

Lulujayne · Post by **Lulujayne** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:53 pm

Oh no darl! Please don't misinterpret my comment regarding "7 weeks being fast."

All I meant was that I remeber when you were posting about watching old "House" epsisodes together and stuff, and I just didn't realize that that much time had gone by. I'm hopeless at keeping track of time - that's all

Don't worry - I wasn't doing a sort of "*sniff sniff* they grow up so fast," type thing.

Anyways, everybody's different, so lengths of times that were appropriate for me might not be the thing for you.

It's lovely to hear that you're still seeing each other

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:27 pm

Yah, i thought that's what you meant but i didnt know how to phrase it.

The weeks have indeed gone by fast... *hugs her George*

You're so sweet. Thanks. *hugs*

~Sara

Honor · Post by **Honor** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:51 pm

I don't have time to read all the responses in detail right now... And I feel safe making very general assumptions about the general tone of them. We've got a good crew here. Opinions and views vary enough to get a balanced menu of advice on just about any subject.

My two cents is just this. Talk to him. Soon. "I've heard some things. While it may seem like something that's a long ways off, I think it's important that we discuss a few subjects." or words to those effect.

Someone you can't see eye to eye with on an issue as central as sex offers a great deal of concern in light of a long term relationship. Someone who's been brainwashed effectively enough to honestly think masturbation is a sin... When he's old enough and smart enough to be in college?? That's some scary, deep mental conditioning, and I'm not at all sure I'd want that person anywhere near my children.

If all you want out of this is someone to date for a little while, it really doesn't matter how compatable you are on important issues like these... But personally, I just can't see myself dating someone if there's not at least some chance I'll want to spend my life with them. So, when I find a major issue we can't work around, the door to forever is closed and the door to "just friends" is open, and it seems dishonest to me to not let them know that.

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:59 pm

Hm... yah, this is the most different response from the others so far! Thanks for your frankness (is that a word?). I do know what you mean.... thing is i'm not even near ready for sex so i don't know that i want to bring it up. Do you know what i mean? This is LTR material, but i'd honestly be ok seeing what happens. I have this thing where i can still be friends or more with someone even if we disagree strongly on some stuff. Like if we were to date for several years and break up for whatever reason, i would be ok with not having had sex wit hhim if he's against it. You know? Well thanks for your advice and i do agree to some extent but i'm still waiting a bit first.

~Sara

Honor · Post by **Honor** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:34 pm

Ok... Given that information, I pretty much agree. Pretty much.

I can, of course, also be close friends with, or even be in a relationship with people with whom I disagree on very important issues... My current GF is a christian and the one a few back was both christian and republican...

But someone who thinks that masturbation or pre-marital sex is morally wrong... That's too much for me. I understand what you're saying, in that you're not ready for sex yet, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest you rush into that... But I'd still try to discover his views if I were in your place.

My rational stems from the idea that believing that masturbation and premarital sex are morally wrong is not just a difference of opinion. That's some deep, weighty juju. That's someone who's been deeply brainwashed with an demonstrably illogical belief. And that, in turn, makes for someone who's likely to hold other illogical and potentially dangerous beliefs and someone who'll try to pass on those beliefs to their children.

In my book, that's semantically equal with someone being racist or sociopathic. It's a false belief carried to the extent that it could be dangerous. Nearly all "family annihilators", for instance, hold deep and radical religious beliefs on that kind of level.

Anyway. My third and fourth cent's worth

Moo Cow · Post by **Moo Cow** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:42 pm

Yah, i definitely understand....

I denno... I understand what you're saying, but it's like, if that's what he believes, then it's ok. I mean, if he was brainwashed into it rather than brought up that way and thinking about it and still saying it's wrong... for some reason it still doesn't bother me. He's ok with people in general doing stuff i just don't know if he's ok with it for himself.

~Sara

Honor · Post by **Honor** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:54 pm

Moo Cow wrote:I mean, if he was brainwashed into it rather than brought up that way and thinking about it and still saying it's wrong...

That's the brainwashing I was talking about... Being raised that way. The other sort's just as dangerous, though.

Anyway. Good luck.