A "Get Your Meat & Potatoes Out Of My Cotton Candy!" thread.

[Xero]

I've never much cared for cotton candy (it's like fibreglass insulation you can eat) but I love meat and potatoes.

When I was little, that's what I'd always ask for for dessert... More meat and potatoes.

you say you're a dyke and asking for cawkandbawlz

[WangyJohn]

I am extremely confused over this thread.

[Honor]

You are keeping things vague so I'm having to fill in the blanks with things like "domestication."

It's a general subject... We didn't really start off discussing the precise breeding habits and social dynamics of sheep.

You've not spent a lot of time with sheep, have you?

Actually, I have, have you? I have also spent a sizable amount of time with goats, cattle, and horses and have read/watched some on their social dynamics.

Quite a bit more than anyone should have to, yes. I grew up in places where 4H and FFA are real things, and I played right along... (4H. Never did FFA.)

Wild sheep would very much follow the alpha ram, who had a tendency to lead the herd in whatever direction seemed like a good idea. He would lead, and the rest would follow him to the next pasture.

Schools of fish and flocks of birds don't do much less... This isn't high grade leadership.

He would also help defend the herd against external threats (to an extent)

Emphasis added. Should be enough said. Well... Add "sometimes".

...he was a "very real leader."

Only in the sense of "he's the guy who walks up front." They stay close because he's biggest and toughest.

Same with horses, very much the same with longhorn cattle (who are as close to wild that humans still deal with).

Well... Same with longhorns. Horses are different. I'd place horses closer to elephants. Horses are fukken smart... And almost social enough to be called a pack.

These herd animals will give the alpha a wide berth, they will challenge and/or retreat over eating rights, the big difference is that they move a lot slower because unlike meat their prey does not run away of provide a lot of energy in a small package.

See... You keep getting to this eating thing. Moving fast or slow, eating meat or grass. Not the issue. Not the big picture. Higher primates eat plants, too... Some exclusively... And they have the kind of social structure and leadership I'm talking about.

Wolves follow their pack leadership in a very real sense... Wild analogs to modern domesticated sheep "follow" their herd alpha in a very general "hey, I'm too far away from the group." sense.

Again, not really. An alpha chooses which prey to chase and the rest of the pack follows out of a sense, "the pack is moving, I don't want to be left behind."

Not so much, no... more on which later.

There really are no significant differences, the ones you seem to be focusing boil down to what they eat.

I'll admit to being more than a bit baffled as to how you keep getting to this idea. I don't think it has fuck to do with what they eat, except in a "building blocks" sense.

What I'm talking about is social dynamics and organization... As you mention later, the more dominant herd animals will absolutely push and shove and bully to get the best feeding rights, but that's not leadership. That's simple preservation of the breeding status they enjoy. "I'm biggest and strongest, so I get first dibs on stuff that will keep me biggest and strongest." It's simple "me first" behavior, enforced by size-driven status.

Jesus... this goes on and on, and I'm running out of 'quote' tags... Let's cut to the chase.

Once again, your entire focus seems to be on a herd being slow, stupid, and fat while a pack is lean, mean, and efficient. Staying efficient means sharp and overt social dynamics rather than slow and moody social slothings. But it boils down to the difference between predator and prey, and otherwise being pretty much the same.

No. None of my focus is there. I didn't say "slow, stupid, and fat" or "lean, mean, and efficient", you did.

Again... Elephants, and to a lesser degree, horses. Chimps, and to a lesser degree, gorillas. Instead of focusing on things I didn't say, let's go back to something I did... The desire to please. The desire for approval.

It's about the social interactions of these animals. It's about what you see when they raise their young... What you see when pack members of different social status interact. Herd animals interact, minimally, yes... But it's not even in the same galactic neighborhood as when chimps or wolves or lions or dolphins or humans interact.

Herd animals spend the vast majority of their time ignoring one another... As long as everyone's close by, that's cool. Even parental interaction is minimal. A little nursing, a little cuddling, stand over here by me, whatever, you're done. Go away. Do I know you?

If it's unavoidable, or if it's convenient... some herd animals will sometimes expend some effort defending a calf who's under attack... Sometimes. Some breeds, who have obviously specialized more for predator defenses, will do this more often and more vehemently than others...

But packs? Messing with someone in a pack is like messing with the fifth brother in an Irish family. Males will often be sent out on their own when they become a threat to pack leadership, but the bonds among sisters, aunts, and those males who stick around run very deep.

I had shades of this discussion here ages ago with Squiddy... We were discussing more "meat eating = brains", but it was similar.

I don't know exactly where it comes from, this urge to see the herd animals as the Noble Savages... Peaceful and wise and benevolent... Probably more advanced than even we humans are... But I'm just not buying.

It's a question of complexity of social interaction... Not just "what's for dinner, and how do we get 'hold of it."

[Honor]

and horses...

Horses are wicked smart, and they love to learn. They love to... do things for lack of another descriptive. But they're not dogs. A really good horse can be your best friend as well as a dog can... But that's not the issue.

I didn't say "best friend", I said "perfect partners"... i.e:, of all animals, they fit best into a human pack structure.

And Xero... Don't quit your day job, dude. That comment was so lame, I don't even know how to counter-attack it.

[Xero]

And Xero... Don't quit your day job, dude. That comment was so lame, I don't even know how to counter-attack it.

exactly
I have found a weakness!
mwahahahhaa

[Honor]

DAMMIT!

::scurries to cover up the chink in her armour::

[Boring 7]

*sigh* Fine...we'll just go with what you said and not try to draw any conclusions.

It's about the social interactions of these animals. It's about what you see when they raise their young... What you see when pack members of different social status interact. Herd animals interact, minimally, yes... But it's not even in the same galactic neighborhood as when chimps or wolves or lions or dolphins or humans interact.

Herd animals spend the vast majority of their time ignoring one another... As long as everyone's close by, that's cool. Even parental interaction is minimal. A little nursing, a little cuddling, stand over here by me, whatever, you're done. Go away. Do I know you?

Yes it is about social interactions, herd animals interact, it is *so* in the same galactic neighborhood as chimps or wolves or lions or dolphins or humans. They do not spend the vast majority of their time ignoring one another, parental interaction is very much important, hell, the "queen" of a herd is determined entirely by having the most children to follow her.

If it's unavoidable, or if it's convenient... some herd animals will sometimes expend some effort defending a calf who's under attack... Sometimes. Some breeds, who have obviously specialized more for predator defenses, will do this more often and more vehemently than others...

They all do whenever they can, it is a question of ability, not socialized desire. A lamb is born to die and be eaten, so unsurprisingly sheep are not very *good* at defending. If they were they would have overpopulated and gone extinct a long time ago.

But packs? Messing with someone in a pack is like messing with the fifth brother in an Irish family. Males will often be sent out on their own when they become a threat to pack leadership, but the bonds among sisters, aunts, and those males who stick around run very deep.

Again, because they are *good* at it. They eat meat so they're equipped to kill and they do it to defend the group. Funny thing, you put a wolf pack up against a threat they can't touch, like a guy with a gun, they run away, even after their "Fifth Irish Sister" dies they run and abandon her. They do this because they can't handle the scary thunderstick.

Now a wolf pack will sometimes take a guy with a gun, and lose several of their number doing so, but only if they're already starving and have decided they'd rather get the thundering protein at a loss of half the pack than starve and lose the entire pack. But defending one who's being hunted and/or slowing down the group? Hell no, the lame wolf gets kicked out just as quick'n'easy as the herd abandons the old Ewe with the limp that the wolf pack decided was going to be dinner.

I bring up dietary needs because that's where all the differences stem from. Sheep "abandon their own" more because they face fights they cannot win more. "They ain't got no teeth worth to speak of in their heads ya know." *swig of rotgut*

I had shades of this discussion here ages ago with Squiddy... We were discussing more "meat eating = brains", but it was similar.

Of course it does. Hunters have to have limited foresight capabilities since the prey may jump left or it may jump right and they need to be ready for either. Grass, like white men, cannot jump. *ba-dum-bum*

I don't know exactly where it comes from, this urge to see the herd animals as the Noble Savages... Peaceful and wise and benevolent... Probably more advanced than even we humans are... But I'm just not buying.

I would assume whoever subscribes to the belief animals are more than animals is overly romanticizing ignorance in the same manner as Luddites and Mennonites.

It's a question of complexity of social interaction... Not just "what's for dinner, and how do we get 'hold of it."

Yes, but the only differences in social interaction are determined by the above. Wolves play more because they have more time for play. Wolves fight more because they are better at fighting. Sheep play less because they spend more time eating. Sheep fight less because they suck at fighting.

And monkeys masturbate more because they have fucking fingers. But I think I'm getting off-topic.

[WangyJohn]

And monkeys masturbate more because they have fucking fingers. But I think I'm getting off-topic.

As opposed to regular fingers?

[Honor]

*sigh* Fine...we'll just go with what you said and not try to draw any conclusions.

Yeah. Sure. Whatever. Just don't expect me to follow along if your "conclusions" are drawn way the hell over there somewhere in the next county, and with crayon.

now... Before I work on a somewhat real response... Allow me to ask this...

(linkology)
...herd animals interact...

...They do not...

the "queen" of a herd...

Are... Uh... Are these links you had around because you go to the sites linked often, or just stuff you found in search that seemed to support your position?

I mean... Even just that one sentence, in and of itself... "The queen obtains her position by bearing the most children in the flock."

Wow. The complexity of the social dynamic makes me shiver.

But seriously... I'd be interested in knowing your emotional and intellectual relationship with your source material before I make a proper response.

[Doogitus]

That's why dogs make perfect partners for humans...

Dogs stink. I ally with the cats!

[Boring 7]

Living on a cattle ranch, working in an auction barn, living in Bumfuckistan Texas, watching nature shows on the discovery channel, and doing a random internet search for *anything* on herd animal social make-up. Which all seem to say the same thing.

Assuming, of course, they say anything at all. (yes, this link showed up in a search for social structures)

A question I might ask is where your position comes from, since I have not found *anything* in the wired or the real suggesting sheep, goats, horses, cattle, or the mysterious Antarctic Emu* don't have direct analogues of anything that pack hunters do (socially speaking of course).

*Antarctic Emu are a rare and fearsome race of ground-fowl known to live upon the ice and run at speeds approaching 55 KPH when chasing their primary food source, the Ice-Dancing Swiftgrass. Their young are always cared for by the entire "shocknoid" or herd in a commune-ish setup. They are prized by hunters for their plumage and the smelted fish that can be extracted from their second gizzard. Their species recently made a beneficial treaty arrangement with the snakehead in an attempt to put pressure upon the Dolphin hegemony. The cetacean empire has not made an official statement at this time.

[Honor]

The conversation has gone so very far afield, that I felt it might be beneficial to go back and look for the part of my initial post on the subject that might have set you off on this tangent...

As best as i can tell, I imagine this was it:

Herd animals congregate for the sort of accidental cooperation that comes from being in a large group. Pack animals actively cooperate for mutual benefit via the benefit of the group. Neither paradigm is 100% all the time, of course, but by and large, to the high 90's, this is how these groups function. Packs need leaders, herds just need consensus.

Now... Just off the cuff, I've got to say that nothing you've put forward really serves as a valid indictment against that statement, in my view.

Yes... Many herds - particularly animals that tend toward smaller herds - have their own "analogues", as you put it*... The smaller the typical herd size, the more this would appear to be the same kind of "leadership" and "cooperation" and "social interaction" as you see in packs.

Why stop there? There is an analog of these social dynamics in the "leadership" structures of ants, and bees, and termites. Hell, in each of these cases, the "queen" achieves her status, in part, by having more offspring than anyone else. They're practically sheep!

Another interesting thing is that you keep delving into possible explanations for why pack animals (focusing on carnivores... no mention yet of primates, and the "herd" animals I've classified as more "pack like") are more like I say they are than are typical herd animals.

It doesn't really matter if they're "like that" because they hunt, or because they eat meat, or because they wear nicely knitted socks, or because they play Gundam Wing on discarded playstations when no humans are around to catch them at it... The point is they're "like that".

Maybe in four million years, Thompson's Gazelles on the African plains will be more pack-like and actually have meaningful leadership relations... Who knows? Who cares? If they don't, I won't be surprised, because they don't have an evolutionary motivator to form those social structures... If they do, it'll only underscore my theory more indelibly... That being, as stated, "mammals, for the most part, need leaders."

A question I might ask is where your position comes from, since I have not found *anything* in the wired or the real suggesting sheep, goats, horses, cattle, or the mysterious Antarctic Emu* don't have direct analogues of anything that pack hunters do (socially speaking of course).

As previously stated, I'd place horses more closely into a "pack" model. And I didn't say "pack hunters" I said "pack animals". I'm not sure "analogues" is really wholly correct... we're not likely looking at behaviors with different evolutionary impetuses.

Anyway... My position is the product of my own observations and independent education... Both in-person interactions and observations like the kind you mention, but in Assrape Utah and Buttplug Colorado, instead of your native and beloved Bumfuckistan... Independent observations made in a variety of situations (for instance, my ex and I did a 12 month study of a "pride" of wild urban felis cattus one year, seeing much more in the way of "normal" pride behaviour than most people at that time assumed possible... I've since seen much in the way of other research that would tend to support our findings.) Some exposure to police dog training and service dog training, text books, Discover Science & Animal Planet channels, and Mutual of Omaha's Wild Freekin' Kingdom.

...All commingled, analyzed, and synthesized into my own theories. Not only do I do my own stunts, I do (much of) my own research and posit my own theories.