turn me off to Buddhism

[Halo299]

as many of you may know i am one of those people who is hostile to religion. Yet i have never denied that i have one, and i have often described myself as a spiritual person.

i have come to realize, however that i have become more of an occultist than an actual practitioner of any specific religion. Let me try and explain. If someone said to me that they saw the Virgin Mary and it meant that god was trying to tell them something.

it would be possible that the person saw SOMETHING, it may even be true that the person saw something 'supernatural' but the person may have perceived it as the Virgin Mary based on their own beliefs or (assuming that they saw something supernatural) the thing might have appeared to them purposefully looking like the Virgin Mary based on some other motive. But without other supporting evidence; the most likely explanation is that their eyes were just playing tricks on them. I look at every so called religious experience like that. It kinda takes the wind out of it.

but, i am considering Buddhism. A few years ago i was a very happy person. I don't think it is coincidences that, at that time my thoughts were heavily influenced by Buddhist thoughts and i was reading may books by Buddhist scholars. Since that time, my overall satisfaction with live has gone down. Their seems to be a positive correlation between Buddhism and happiness.

but i have always always said that it is far more important that you be right than it is that you be happy. Just because something makes me feel good doesn't make it true.

so before i start shaving my head or anything i just want to hear some logical arguments against the Buddhist belief system.

ok...i want you to hit me as hard as you can.

-halo

[Swordsman3003]

In many cases, especially if you were to look at the original teachings of Siddhartha Guatama, buddhism is more philosophy than religion.

The two or three main sects of buddhism that exist today contain many additional beliefs that are religious in nature, and stories about mystical powers and forces and how they influenced many buddhists.

Mahayana buddhism is the most widespread, and includes a history of thousands of additional or apocryphal teachings. The explanation for all of this supplementary tutelage is that humanity, during the life of the buddha, was like a very small child, unable to eat a large meal. As humanity has aged, it has become old enough to digest the full nature of the "truth."

Obviously there are many contrary ideas present in different regions of mahayana buddism. Without going into further detail (I'm sure you can read about this crap on wikipedia), I'm just going to say that mahayana buddhism has as much BS as any other religion.

So, when you say you want to be a buddhist, what do you mean? That's like converting to 'christianity.'

If you just want to follow the 4 noble truths and the nobe eightfold path...you really don't have to be a buddhist. Anybody can follow the ten commandments; you don't have to be jewish.

[Lesotheron]

Sorry, I can't help you out on this one. Not only do I fully support your right to choose to follow Buddhism, I happen to think Buddhism is one of the better belief systems out there.

I've never followed Buddhism, nor have I studied it in-depth. From what I've gathered about it, it seems to be about finding your spiritual center and following that to personal happiness. It's not so much about believing in something greater than yourself, it's more about believing yourself to be greater than you thought.

If I'm wrong, I welcome anyone to give me more information about Buddhism. If I'm right, I can certainly think of worse things for someone to believe.

[Swordsman3003]

Not only do I fully support your right to choose to follow Buddhism,

*sigh*

I've never followed Buddhism, nor have I studied it in-depth. From what I've gathered about it, it seems to be about finding your spiritual center and following that to personal happiness. It's not so much about believing in something greater than yourself, it's more about believing yourself to be greater than you thought.

That's a pretty shallow interpretation of buddhism. I think the Buddha himself summarized his ideas pretty effectively, but here is my explanation in vernacular:

1. Life sucks.
2. Life sucks because you want things. Sometimes you want something you can't have, sometimes you get something you didn't want.
3. If you can convince yourself to stop wanting your life to be different than it already is, life won't suck anymore.
4. The way to stop wanting things is to follow the noble eightfold path (look it up).

Without these concepts, you really don't have buddhism.

[LeftTentacleGreen]

A few years ago i was a very happy person. I don't think it is coincidences that, at that time my thoughts were heavily influenced by Buddhist thoughts and i was reading may books by Buddhist scholars. Since that time, my overall satisfaction with live has gone down. Their seems to be a positive correlation between Buddhism and happiness.

You wouldn't believe the number of times I've seen this.

"I'm not happy + spirituality = Happy"

Its just more likely you've come across some more social or economic stress in your life as you've gotten older and you may not have had the time to enjoy the things you once did, or they've just lost their effect on you. This is the kind of thing conservatives hope for when they preach about "better times" when people were younger and had less responsibility like when their parents shouldered it all. This is also the reason why so many Hollywood celebrities can't stay off drugs and alcohol. They think the poisons they intake will be a quick fix to make them happier people - if even for a short time. And also why obese people will medicate themselves with food. They're all looking for that joyful quick-fix when in reality, it takes a while of self-evaluation and looking at where you are in life and where you want to be.

Its a long term solution, but its most likely the least self-destructive.

[Drigovas]

I've actually been asked to convince somebody not to follow Buddhism before, and I'll give you the same answer I gave them.

"Just think of how convenient it is for the rest of us if you pick up something like Buddhism. Why would I want to talk you out of it."

One of two things will happen :
1: Nothing.
2: Your inner bastard will force you to reject Buddhism out of a want for the rest of us to be inconvenienced.

The last person I said that to not only had a strong inner bastard, but a damn strong outer bastard too. He was just a bastard through and through.

Okay, so it's not real advice. It's not a blow to the head or anything. The trial-by-fire that most faiths in anything get destroyed by is when you actually learn about it. If you've learned about it, and you still buy into it, then there's not a whole lot any of us are going to be able to do to "cure" you. Faith is inoperable, you can only treat the symptoms.

[Kingofthemorlocks]

OK. I consider myself Buddhist. I don't identify myself with any of the major or minor sects (I originally belonged to Nichiren Buddhism, but found that that didn't work for me).

Siddharta Gautama, the historical Buddha, is on record as having said "Believe nothing simply because it is written, or because someone said it, or even because I said it. But if it agrees with your own reason and common sense, then embrace it."

I'm not going to try and argue you out of Buddhism in general, but simply out of joining a specific sect or shaving your head. Because while the Four Noble Truths contain much that is good, they need to be tempered by the use of reason and common sense.

Monks with shaved heads. Do you know why they shave their heads? Attachment leads to suffering, and they shave their heads so that they aren't attached to it and coiffing it and being vain with it. They try to eliminate their desire for things, but where does this eventually lead? If taken far enough, to a loss of the desire to live.

Much better to study the original teachings, and take from them what works for you, rather then enslaving yourself to an ideology that has grown out of the teachings in later centuries.

[Halo299]

In many cases, especially if you were to look at the original teachings of Siddhartha Guatama, buddhism is more philosophy than religion.

i know...that is one of the things i like about it.

You wouldn't believe the number of times I've seen this.

"I'm not happy + spirituality = Happy"

now that was a good shot.

hmmm...the thing is that during the time i was studying (notice how i did not say practicing) buddhism. i was effectively homeless, i had just dropped out of college, i had just broken up with my GF of many years, and i was working at Taco Bell. Yet fo some reason i was very happy.

now i have a nice job, i am close to getting my degree, i have a nice house, and a GF who isn't bat shit crazy (like the last one). Yet i don't feel as happy despite the fact that my situation is so much better.

this leads me to believe that my happiness back then had more to do with my internal workings than with my situation, which is what caused me to remember my interest in Buddhism.

Its just more likely you've come across some more social or economic stress in your life as you've gotten older

while it is true that i do have more responsibility now, survival isn't a problem anymore. This makes me think that my stress level should be going down, not up.

and you may not have had the time to enjoy the things you once did, or they've just lost their effect on you.

that seems like just the kind of problem that Buddhism would be good at handling.

now i am not saying that if i let Buddha into my heart and establish a personal relationship with him, that his magic Buddha powers will take all of my troubles away.

I am just theorizing that the Buddhist world-view would help me deal with my day to day stress while allowing a place for my metaphysical interest. But i am very suspicious of establish religious stuff, which is why i want you guys to challenge me on this before i make a fool out of myself.

-halo

[WangyJohn]

Five pounds of flax.

Convinced yet?

[Swordsman3003]

My Uncle can remember the happiest time of his life. His wife had just left him (and taken the kid), he had just lost his job, etc etc. Why was he so happy?

He was an alchoholic...and drank himself silly day after day. His life sucked, but he was happy.

Now, I'm not saying that buddhism and alcoholism are exactly the same thing, I'm just pointing out that even if something makes you happy, it might not be the best thing to do.

[Halo299]

Now, I'm not saying that buddhism and alcoholism are exactly the same thing, I'm just pointing out that even if something makes you happy, it might not be the best thing to do.

point well taken.

as i said in my first post it is more important to me that i be right than that i be happy.

now, i don't want to get into a "is Buddhism the right religion" discussion, but i do need to know if there is any glaring logic holes in the Buddhist belief system that i am missing.

If someone says to me "I am a protestant" i can rip them apart with logic, science, and history that would end the faith of any sane person.

If someone says to me "I am a catholic" Same thing, but this time in Latin.

Jew? a bit harder with the history, but i still got you on logic and science.

Muslim? a tough one, but now as bad as the Jew.

Scientologist? You’re kidding right?

But I can’t think of too many arguments against Buddhism. The reason is, is that Buddhism (as I understand it) doesn’t make any claims to anything that can be picked apart by logic or science.

It doesn’t attempt to deal with the creation of the world, but rather the improvement of the self. And not by wearing denim skirts or swearing you’ll never have sex with a man, but by changing the way you think and the power you are willing to give your desirers and cravings over you.

There is a metaphysical side that lies outside the realm of known science, like karma and reincarnation, but while these things are outside of the realm of science, they don’t contradict any known scientific principle that I know of. At best I could treat them like a theory and life my life as a sort of experiment.

kingofthemorlocks; thanks for the warning against Buddhist orders. I already know that they added a lot of things to the original teachings.

WangyJohn: what?

-halo

[WangyJohn]

WangyJohn: what?

-halo

It was a Koan.

[Swordsman3003]

Well, many buddhists believe in reincarnation, for example. And karma. And dharma too, often.

Those ideas are pretty ridiculous to me.

[Kittyboymuffin]

Five pounds of flax.

Convinced yet?

No, you're getting it confused with Discordianism. Buddha is "three pounds of flax", whereas Discordianism is "FIVE TONS OF FLAX!!"

[Ghastly]

The problem I have with Buddhism is the lack of passion for everything except having a lack of passion. It's too escapist for my liking.

The irony is according the the mythos of Siddhartha's life is that the prophecy of his life was a self fullfilling one. His father (an Indian king) was visited by some monks who told him his son would either grow up to be the greatest king the world had ever known or the most holy monk and spiritual saviour of the world. His father naturally wanted an heir to his thrown and was determined that his son not become a monk and thus kept him in the castle and refused to allow him to be exposed to anything disturbing. Thus he knew a life of only pleasure until he was older and ventured out of the castle walls and saw people suffering and death. That shocked him so much he wanted to find a way to end all suffering and that lead him down his spiritual path.

Had his father allowed him to live a normal life instead of a life sheltered from all suffering he would have learned to deal with the fact that sometimes life is good and sometimes life is a real bitch, just like any normal person would have. Because he grew up so sheltered he had no means of coping with suffering so when he was finally exposed to it he was desperate to find a way to escape it which lead him down the path of a spiritual solution.

The salvation of Buddhism tends to irk me just as much as the salvation of Christianity as they both seem to be geared towards avoidance of a problem as a solution.

With Buddhism suffering is caused by desire and you deal with suffering by becoming a passionless drone devoid of all desire. That doesn't seem like much of a life to me and really doesn't do much to alleviate any suffering.

With Christianity suffering is caused by sin. Their outlook is, everyone's a sinner so you perform a ritual and Jesus "pays the price" for your sin and then you're pretty much scott-free to go on doing whatever the hell you want because you're "saved". Nothing is actually done to alleviate any suffering in the world because, well, the basic premise of Christianity is "nobody's perfect" so by being "saved" you not only don't have an obligation to do anything about it you can actually contribute to it if you wish and then simply say "well everyone is a sinner, but I'm 'saved'". That's even morally more offencive than the "I'm just going to sit here and do nothing" approach of Buddhism because it opens the potential to actively make things worse. In Christianity salvation is like a technicality. It's like a legal loophole that makes it so god has to let you into heaven even though you don't deserve it and by all rights should burn with the rest of us sinners.

There was a Jewish rabbi who was once asked to explain to a goyim king what his religion was about and he answered, "The only commandment of Judaism is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Everything else is just commentary." That pretty much sums up everything you need to know about living a good life right there. Even Jesus (who personally I believe if he existed at all was just a rabbi and never believed himself nor claimed to be the Messiah) said the greatest commandment was "Love thy neighbour as thyself and love the Lord thy God with all your heart" pretty much said the same thing. Hell, even the Wiccans with all their flakey new-age mumbo-jumbo and absurd retro-conned history and "this'll get back at my suburban middle-class parents" trappings managed to get it right with "Do as thou wilst but harm none" (and remember kids before you wantonly dip into the hippy chemical bag, none includes yourself). That's pretty much it right there. That's all you need in the way of spirituality to get you through this life. "Be thou not a douche-nozzle".

Why people have to go fucking up such a simple and obvious philosophy by arguing about which invisible sky being you're supposed to pray to any how you're supposed to appease it is totally beyond my comprehension. Hell, you don't even have to believe in invisible sky beings in order to appreciate the simple wisdom of what we collectively call "the Golden Rule".

[Halo299]

win and god

your words are as wise as your penis is mighty.

-halo

[Warmachine]

Clearly, Ghastly has studied Buddhism. I haven't. When I first heard of this philosophy that suggests having no desires, I regarded it as lunacy and stopped my research.

Never seek bliss. Being in a state of bliss means you lose all motivation and you stagnate. If you can't see what's wrong with that, you're not really human and you should join the rest of the herd. Keep yourself hungry for knowledge, beauty, justice or whatever floats your boat and never stop.

Or to use the RAF expression my father taught me.

Strive for perfection. But for god's sake, don't get there!

[Lynch]

My Uncle can remember the happiest time of his life. His wife had just left him (and taken the kid), he had just lost his job, etc etc. Why was he so happy?

He was an alchoholic...and drank himself silly day after day. His life sucked, but he was happy.

Now, I'm not saying that buddhism and alcoholism are exactly the same thing, I'm just pointing out that even if something makes you happy, it might not be the best thing to do.

It's very easy to convince your self that you were happy.
Read Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert.

[Honor]

Excellent post, G. One caution on the "Golden Rule" though... Beware of advocating it's adherence in the presence of extreme masochists.


My own points on this... Buddhism isn't a religion, as others have pointed out.

Religion tells you where to drive to, what kind of car to drive, and which roads to take, and how fast to drive on those roads, where to turn on and off your turn signals, and where to change lanes and turn, and what to do once you get there...

Buddhism says "Drive responsibly, safely, and courteously... Enjoy your journey fully, and, wherever you drive, be aware of where you are."


There are parts of Buddhism I am very fond of... Of course, I pick the ones I like, dismiss the ones I consider ridiculous, and feel no sense of impropriety over it... I have seen no evidence that anyone who has yet lived, to include Siddartha, was any better equipped to devise a philosophy of life than I am... Particularly my life. Thus, my life-philosophy is self directed, self searching, as near as I can manage, all-encompassing... And thus, by definition, ever evolving.

Buddhism involves a very useful exercise on self-examination... Starting with developing the nearly impossible capability to be completely in the moment... Wholly conscious of yourself and your environment, at that moment in time. While this is certainly not anything you want to do all the time, it's very... useful, as an exercise.


It involves the concept of being responsible for your actions... Since there is no god, and Buddhism recognizes this, there is nobody else to shift responsibility to... And no one to reward you for doing well, or punish you for doing poorly...

On the one hand, doing well is it's own reward... Having a positive impact on the world, on those around you, and on yourself - which is also important - is a self-fulfilling cycle, generally.

In a world drowned in religious faith, and the ducking of responsibility and outcome modern views of liberal Christianity, specifically engenders - where God is all loving, and sure to forgive you for your imperfections - I have found nothing that feels better than knowing I alone am responsible for how I react to the opportunities and difficulties that life hands me, and I alone am qualified to judge how well I do, on a day to day basis. No reward or punishment anyone else could administer could match those I level at myself, anyway.

On the other hand... They take the "do no harm" concept -way- too far, advocating it to an extent where you must cease being a natural animal in any sense, in order to meet the artificial ideal established... Like vegetarianism. Not only is it unnatural for us, as animals, it's artificially arbitrary. Who's to say "destroying" an animal is any better or worse than "destroying" a plant? We live in balance not by destroying nothing - all living things consume. We live in balance, rather, by not destroying wontonly.


Seek knowledge and wisdom in all thoughts... All philosophies... All disciplines... Then, consider them intelligently and dispassionately, and apply them in a way that is meaningful and enhancing to you. The one real advantage we have over the other animals is the ability to record and pass on thought and knowledge, and absorb that information and consider it critically.

This is roughly half of experiencing life... Because we are communicating animals who can record thoughts and experiences, we can experience not only our own lives, first hand, but also the lives of others, second hand... And experiencing life, as fully, as wholly, as completely as you responsibly and intelligently can... That is the secret to living a rewarding and fulfilling life.


Or... Put another way...


Experience beauty, and stop to recognize and appreciate it, and create it, when you can. Experience happiness and joy, both in yourself and others, and create it when you can... Both in yourself and others. Gain and absorb and create and share knowledge and wisdom... As nearly as you reasonably can, waste nothing - Least of all time. If you consume a sumptuous feast, savor it. Enjoy it... If you give it the full enjoyment of it's potential, it has not been wasted. Likewise, if you lay about and do nothing for a day... Savor the rest and quietude. As silly as it may seem, at first glance, think about it... If you enjoy and take full benefit from time spent in rest and introspection, for it's own sake, then it has not been wasted. Make the most, and take the greatest amount of joy from your relationships with others and yourself... Love and be loved, as it were... But not just in the erotic or romantic sense. Learn and teach. Help and accept help. Comfort and be comforted. Protect and be protected... Develop your ideals as honestly and openly and intelligently and compassionately as you can, and then live them to the best of your ability...

If you can do these things, you will find that you have lived well... And that you need no "religious" authority outside of yourself.

[Ghastly]

win and god

your words are as wise as your penis is mighty.

-halo

Wouldn't you know it. I've God Winned the thread.