So tell me...

Courage · Post by **Courage** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 4:25 am

What's with the big furry Chick tract?

Andrick · Post by **Andrick** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 5:59 am

I'd like to be able to answer you on this but I don't know what you are talking about. Can you please elaborate on this?

Silverblue · Post by **Silverblue** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 9:23 am

'Courage' is refering to Jack Chick, a writer of various 'Christian' tracts designed to convert the unbelievers to his particular version of the religion. Unbelievers in this case being pretty nearly anyone who wasn't from the right white anglo saxon background.He's best known amongst the roleplaying community for writing 'Dark Dungeons', which explains how all roleplayers are satan-worshipping teens involved in evil rituals (well, thank God I know now! Better throw away the dice, I guess). He comes across as small minded, racist, sexist, and incapable of respecting the beliefs or customs of others. I think that the only people who dislike him more than those he attacks are fellow Christians who cop the bad name he gives the religion himself.It's a pity that Chick and David's creation are associated by name, in some ways.But then, I'm not exactly Jack Chick's greatest fan...

Andrick · Post by **Andrick** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 10:23 am

Oh! I remember seeing Dark Dungeons getting circulated. I thought it was a funny satire until someone told me it was serious - at which point I laughed my ass off. But I still don't see the correlation, name not withstanding. Jack is a comic about morality and not just any morality but that which involves intent instead of tenants of dogma. The other is... disconnected from reality and outright patronizing. So I am at a loss as to what one has to do with the other. I just don't see it.

Ashton Webster · Post by **Ashton Webster** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 10:55 am

Welcome to the forum, Courage!------------------
Ashton Webster, the
official greeter of the
Jack forum

DavidHopkins · Post by **DavidHopkins** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 2:19 am

Okay, Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. or Dr. or what ever your tittle may be. Tell me my job. How do I draw a comic about Heaven and Hell, Crime and punishment, Lie and Death while at the same time being completely fair to every caricter in the story?Not a smug deal hear, I am just truely interested to know how you would do it?

Thorne · Post by **Thorne** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 2:19 am

Just a short thought, because I'm short on time, I might have made this point before, but who knows (apparently I don't).Just on Courage's note about the fact that killing a good man sends them to heaven, or killing an evil (sinful) person sends them to hell...that's not the point.If said evil person had not lived thier life in such a manner, redemption would not even be necessary. Do some evl-doers get the chance for redemption and others do not? Yes. Is that fair? No. But then again, one of the oldest sayings in the world is that life is anything but fair.The point, rather, would be to live life in such a manner that if you were to die today, by anothers hand, accident or otherwise, you would enter into Heaven. As for those in Heaven being smug about the system can could possibly send family or loved ones into damnation, I doubt that. Afterall, it was the actions of those who are damned that placed them in the position they are in. The system, in turn, was created by the Creator of all, who is perfect, therefore the system is flawless.Have a bit more on the brain, but time is up.Whats really not fair....Fnar still has no nose.

Yawgmoth · Post by **Yawgmoth** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 2:43 am

Do me an Ashton need to get the Cow sized Flesh eating Rats Dave OVo i smell another Lamer pink boy

LudiNimTazral · Post by **LudiNimTazral** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 5:05 am

>What's with the big furry Chick tract?Well, the closest thing these days to a "furry Chick tract" on the main webcomix is getting to be "Sabrina Online" -- at least since ZigZag started getting a major role. One list I was on described SO as becoming "a Chick tract for porn" since ZZ got star billing.

DavidHopkins · Post by **DavidHopkins** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 6:11 am

No Yawg, he needs to feel free to speak his mind.

Reckonin · Post by **Reckonin** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The correlation should be obvious, since you point out the only significant difference. But I wouldn't say that either is a story about morality. Rather, morality becomes entirely reversed and irrelevant in both.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would put fault on the idea that this is a story about morality. Rather, I would say that it is a story about how characters react in a setting that may have laws that conflict with what is moral. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
In the universe of Jack, for example, the most evil thing you can possibly do is to kill an evil person, because then you'll send them straight to hell and deny them the chance to reform later on.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a major error in this line of thought, not in how it deals with what it

AtmanRyu · Post by **AtmanRyu** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:35 am

I think I should mention something that John K. (Ren and Stimpy; The Rippin' Friends) once mentioned in an interview. He said that he despited moralistic cartoons during the 80's (ex: Care Bears), because they were way too mushy; didn't show what the real world was like; definitively misleading kids that everyone's nice (or HAD to be nice)...I bring this because this comic's NOT moralistic; it's a comic that makes you think, which is entirely different. This is not a kiddies comic; It's a mature comic (and yes, this is one comic that I truly consider mature, because of content and not because of excessive display of violence/sex scenes). It is assumed also that most of the readers here are mature enough to come up with their own ideas or concepts based on David's storytelling, and that's why this comic's succesful: He knows how to reach people through his comic; the comic makes them think and ponder about life itself; it doesn't tell you if your believes are right or wrong... On the contrar, it forces you to find out for yourself.Life's not fair; what guarantees that the afterlife should be?Good day.------------------
"Hoj'sh n

Crescentmoon76 · Post by **Crescentmoon76** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:50 am

Here's Chick's website:
<A HREF="http://www.chick.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.chick.com/</A> You can find Dark Dungeons with a little diligence.If you don't mind the plug here's my personal take on the "other" JC
<A HREF="http://chuckoliang.keenspace.com/d/20011212.html" TARGET=_blank>http://chuckoliang.keenspace.com/d/20011212.html</A> ------------------
chuckoliang.keenspace.com
Chuckoliang@hotmail.com

Courage · Post by **Courage** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:16 am

But I still don't see the correlation, name not withstanding. Jack is a comic about morality and not just any morality but that which involves intent instead of tenants of dogma.The correlation should be obvious, since you point out the only significant difference. But I wouldn't say that either is a story about morality. Rather, morality becomes entirely reversed and irrelevant in both.In the universe of Jack, for example, the most evil thing you can possibly do is to kill an evil person, because then you'll send them straight to hell and deny them the chance to reform later on. On the other hand, killing good and kind people is an infinitely moral selfless act, because in doing so you guarantee them an eternity of bliss at the cost of your own soul.Hell appears to contain plenty of people who've been sentenced to infinite punishment for insignificant crimes, while the real monsters consistently profit from their crimes and find themselves on top of the heap in heck.The only people worse than those? The smug bastards in heaven, who rarely even protest a system that sends people they knew in life - often good friends - into eternal misery and suffering. And the only thing more evil than that is to put them there in the first place, a task the supposedly principled Jack seems more than happy to perform in most cases.You're right about the difference in the overall message. If anything, Chick tracts are more inherently reasonable because they only require you to 'accept Jesus' while in Jack's world you can find yourself damned quite easily for bizarre and inconsequential thoughtcrime, with apparently no chance to repent later. Since all Chick requires is that you sign up to his religion, you can't be forced to commit an evil act in order to get into heaven - as has happened on at least one occasion in Jack.Jack depicts rape, murder, disembowelment, torture and violence in great quantities, and I have no real problem with any of that. Unfortunately the strip also behaves as though it's just, and there it couldn't be more wrong. David is either a vengeful man with the emotional maturity of a sunken-eyed, 13 yr old Spawn fan or a brilliant and subtle satirist who's taking an awfully long time to get to the point.I would take it for a devastatingly effective satire showing how the guaranteed punishments and rewards promised by many religions make virtue wholly worthless and irrelevant. There's nothing noble about doing something in the hopes of getting a reward or out of fear, especially when both the reward and the threat are infinite. Sadly the occasional story that depicts happy lovers getting reunited in heaven puts the lie to this interpretation.I'd like a strip about morality, it's a fascinating subject. But I don't see much morality here. I don't see any morality at all.------------------
Courage

Andrick · Post by **Andrick** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:51 am

"the Vatican is using its occult force to deceive millions"? I think I found a new comedy site. Wow! That is just....oh there is no word for that. Discover Rock and Rolls roots in Druidism? This is just too funny...sad...but funny.But who said this comic is not about morality? John's fate was a result of his choice when he was in a moral quandry. Many such characters in Jack have that kind of choice between doing what they want and doing what they know is right.Remember Vince? Founded an empire on faith, siezed power and nations and attempted to unify all under his power? What if we found out millions were saved by his actions; by consolidating the resources of disparate nations he actually brought about a means to advance learning, propogate medicine, defend the oppressed, promote equality, prevent famine, stanch disease, provide for common defense, raise the standard of living and establish order? Truly he would have been a benefactor of Jack's world having ushered in such a golden age... but he would have... sorry, he does burn in Hell. Though those that prospered outweigh those harmed it was Vincent's intent which damned him.As for one 'martyring' themself to slay an innocent to send to heaven... funny how they (the innocents) don't seem happy about it in the comic. Angry, bitter, horified, sad but never happy. If anything, David is great at hinting of some greater potential the innocents have not fulfilled (the most blatant is Fnar).This would've probably gone on longer but its already boring tripe. So have at thee!

Loneheart · Post by **Loneheart** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:11 pm

I don't think people would show this much interest in a comic strip about either morality or religion. I think Jack, like most successful comic strips, is about people (admittedly furry dead people most of the time but people, none the less) and the situations they have to deal with.

Ordinary Guy · Post by **Ordinary Guy** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:15 pm

Hmmmm, Courage is very much like Fin in his writing.He makes almost the same analysis as Fin did here:
<A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/Forum24 ... 00204.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.keenspace.com/forums/Forum24 ... 04.html</A> I really do hope that Jack is a dynamic story and in the end Heaven and Hell will be crushed under the weight of their own injustices.But deep down, I doubt it will happen.

DavidHopkins · Post by **DavidHopkins** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Courage:
Okay, Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. or Dr. or what ever your tittle may be. Tell me
my job. How do I draw a comic about Heaven and Hell, Crime and punishment,
Lie and Death while at the same time being completely fair to every caricter
in the story?<A HREF="http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/dtr/dtr.html" TARGET=_blank>Mu</A>.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Was this all an elaborate sceme to get me to read this? This comic (in my own view offcourse) is not an example of being completely fair to its caricters. Mr. Chick especialy, I'm not terribly fond of his works but I don't think he's done anything to diserve this slander. And you don't think its rather big of the writer to say "You shouldnt write this, You should write this"? As for the "Bible thumpers" why would you want to punish someone because he has a belief? What is wrong with someone coming to your door and wanting to talk with you about something they respect and get joy out of so much that they are willing to knock on a strangers door not knowing whats behind that door to share it. If about half the world belived in something, anything that much, I think we'd be in good shape. I do however agree with the part about spending your whole life kissing Gods ass, I think you were given life to experiance life so get out of the church some time and do something.You claim its not unfair, but it is, it's unfair to me and it'll seem as an unfair representation of many peoples faith. It may certainly be fair to you, but its far from completly fair to everyone. You can't write a fair story because thats perfection and we are far from perfect beings.

Thorne · Post by **Thorne** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:34 am

Wow, a lot can be posted while one is at work.Oh well. First off, no reason to get snipey and start with the insults Ordinary Guy. I was simply expressing my opinion, as did Courage, but I belive David already covered that.Secondly, one thing I notice a lot of talk on is fairness. In the situations presented in this comic I belive "fairness" is a hard thing to define. The reason for this is that we have no say in what is fair in such a situation as who is saved and who is damned.If we are using Christian ideology/mythology, whatever you call it, where there is a Heaven and Hell, there is also a God. God is the all-knowing all-powerful creator of everything. God is also infinately good. People are redeamed into Heaven of condemed to Hell based on rules set by God. So, wether we as mortals belive that such a system is fair, it must be right, regardless if we understand why it is right.Is this fair? By human standards it doens't always seem fair. In point the situtaion where a good person so tramatized by events in life decide they cannot go on and commit the mortal sin of suicide is then sent to Hell for that sin. No, this certainly doesn't seem fair. Is it right? Ask God.Anywho...Hey, I like the posts like the one presented by Courage. It presents the oppritunity for very interesting and thought provoking posts.Keep 'em coming and lets roll, homey.
Outie-Thorne

Ordinary Guy · Post by **Ordinary Guy** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:33 am

And here comes the waves of drooling fanboys.To all the Fanboys, shutup. This is a serious analysis of your comic and you can't take that its a bad review. Both of the two serious critics who reviewed this comic and posted their reviews on the boards, Fin and Courage, came to the same ends. The end is that if it isn't a dynamic satire, it must be a stupid Spawn wannabe.I hear fanboys whining that "Life isn't Fair". But thats the thing. Judgement in all its forms, from the courts here on earth to a fictional supreme court in heaven are Supposed to be fair. Otherwise there is no point to them and they are a mockery of justice. Thats exactly what Justice is, fairness, and if you fail to see that I really hope you don't sit on any courtroom juries.Life may not be fair, but Death is."The system, in turn, was created by the Creator of all, who is perfect, therefore the system is flawless."It is shown many times in Jack itself, that the System has many blaringly obvious flaws. The psychic lesbian(forgot name...) story in particular plays on this."Bring me one example of the strip trying to set forth that it is just and what you should believe in."Right after Jack hauled the psychic lesbian off to Hell to become Drip's new playtoy. An angel said to him "Theres a difference between what you feel is right, and what you know is right". Theres your example.AtmanRyu, Ren and Stimpy didn't show what the real world was like, it mislead kids into believing the opposite of the Care Bears, that everyone Had to be mean."Okay, Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. or Dr. or what ever your tittle may be. Tell me my job. How do I draw a comic about Heaven and Hell, Crime and punishment, Lie and Death while at the same time being completely fair to every caricter in the story?
Not a smug deal hear, I am just truely interested to know how you would do it?"Crap, so it isn't a satire. Its a Spawn wannabe. Then David must be a "vengeful man with the emotional maturity of a sunken-eyed, 13 yr old Spawn fan". Dammit.Out of time.