So tell me...

DavidHopkins · Post by **DavidHopkins** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:45 am

Hangy, Bluesman and Gene were both at the last Conifur I met them both even saw them both in the same room. If they are the same person they've achived something not even superman can do,. Gene/Bluesman? Wow! How did you do it?If you don't like my art don't look. If you like it fine, If you hate it fine. I personaly like where its at right now and believe its made vast improvments over the years. So don't look if it offends your eyes.And sence you havent mentioned it in a while does this mean you dont think I'm violently insane anymore?

Bluesman · Post by **Bluesman** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ordinary Guy:
A salute to fanboys, forever sheltering David from any criticism whatsoever!
[/IMG] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>*snrk* Of course, when the argument runs out of steam, resort to name calling. That always makes your criticism more valid.Really, feel free to fire away whatever you think. I've offered my observations and criticisms here for almost a year now. But if you're going to make a point, make sense and be able to defend your position. That, and state your opinions for what they are O-P-I-N-I-O-N. No one here holds a monopoly on the truth.

BigNemo · Post by **BigNemo** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:35 pm

Definitely, too much line noise in this thread.What a waste of bandwidth <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">

Hangdog · Post by **Hangdog** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DavidHopkins:
Hangy, Bluesman and Gene were both at the last Conifur I met them both even saw them both in the same room. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>*shrug* My mistake. I thought he sounded a bit twink to be Gene, but in this fandom, one is continually and unpleasantly surprised... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you don't like my art don't look. If you like it fine, If you hate it fine. I personaly like where its at right now and believe its made vast improvments over the years. So don't look if it offends your eyes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dave, you've once again missed the boat. In fact, you never even got near the ocean. You're in a cornfield in Iowa thinking vaguely about seafood.You haven't changed a bit: anything less than total acceptance and unconditional adulation you interpret as rejection and hatred. And you insist on reading this interpretation into every criticism that's offered to you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And sence you havent mentioned it in a while does this mean you dont think I'm violently insane anymore?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Violently insane? No, I never thought or said that. Just very immature--a correctable condition, or so I always thought. But the chances of your correcting it while hanging out with this crowd are slim to none.Good luck with life and love, Dave: maybe you'll win the Lottery, or maybe luck will favor you in other ways (as it already seems to have done). But I doubt you'll get very far on your own unless you change substantially.------------------
"It's three No Trumps," the soldier said;
A sniper's bullet struck him dead.
His cards bedecked the trench's bottom.
A comrade peered--"Yes, he'd 'a' got 'em!"

Krikkit · Post by **Krikkit** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 1:51 am

>>or at least come clean that it is such when asked.And who's doing the asking? A federal inquisition? If not, then he doesn't have to say or do anything upon the request of anybody. That's like saying "At least have the common courtesy to tell me whether you are Gay when I ask." These things have no consequence on us, so we are owed no compliance.That's such a load, to try and work somebody into a corner and foretell their artistic doom. Nose Out, and all that. There are about a thousand ways to tell somebody that they will go far with improvement. "Hey, you've got a lot of talent, I bet when your style matures a bit you'll really be a contender. Once you've got a few more stories under your belt, I think you'll find a real good command of a storyline" How about that? When people mean something positively, they say it that way.Jack is just fine and dandy, as far as I can tell. Yes, I can look at it academically and see points of contention as far as storytelling, and artistic style can go, but Hello? Has David been doing this for 30 years? Doubtful, then he will grow and develop his style fluidly and to the best of his ability, just like us musicians.
There are no problems with observing, debating, and even dismissing an artist's work. I do it all the time, but the artist and his work are seperate entities, and I'm sure he can see his own personal needs better than any of us.This makes me kinda think of all those people that like to look at The Great Gatsby and talk about how Fitzgerald was so obviously Gay because of the words, and all that other bull. Leave it be, Nose Out.I keep my trains of thought to the pieces of work, because that is what the artists, authors and musicians present to us.When we like a Comic book, we spend tons of money on it, and when it starts to suck, we stop buying it and never look back. Yet, for some reason, when we can get a fantastic story for free, the blooming author suddenly owes us explanations as to his style? Yeah, okay.

DavidHopkins · Post by **DavidHopkins** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:05 am

I'll respond then you can have the last word, Hangy. After this I think I'll be done with you, if you don't mind <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">I wouldn't read hatred in your "criticisms" if they wernt as vague as "Improve your art". Some aspects of my art, I will admit my hands aren't as good as I would like and occasionaly I don't like how my giant animated penises turn out from time to time. But I think I have improved, look at the beginning of this comic and compare, or look at RTD and compare, or if you're really into self punishment you can compare with Everythingelse.keenspace.com . Now what part needs improvement? Which of your personal favorite artists do I need to be more like? What am I supposed to get from "Improve your art?" I know you're used to working with folks in the Anthro fandom who feel the world ends at every critique but that's not me. Your very words do not have the power to quake worlds, least of all mine. If I was insulted or depressed by your statements as moderator it'd be easy for me to edit or delete this entire topic. But I didn't. Because I'm not effected.And I thought the whole debate we had on the Yerf Newsgroup was focused on the topic of my mental capacity: Criminal, violent or otherwise. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">As for my life.. What does luck have to do with it? What do you know about me and my day-to-day living that makes you just know that if I don't change my (sinful? Evil?) ways I'm going to fall flat on my face? What change do I need to make?Okay, that's it. I'm done. Your turn then I'll see ya again next time you wanna talk <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">Toodles.

Renwulf · Post by **Renwulf** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:32 am

Very simply.I like Jack. That's what I bother looking in the message board cause others like it as well. Personally, I don't read Jack to find moral lessons or for religious enlightenment..if I wanted that I'd read Playboy.What I do read it for is the artwork (which I think is good), the stories and the way David develops charactors. I don't know Mu, I am not a furry (least..don't know if I am).I like to be entertained, Jack is entertaining.nuff said[This message has been edited by Renwulf (edited 02-14-2002).]

Mercer · Post by **Mercer** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:07 am

OK, Renwolf just said, pretty much verbatim, what I was gonna say. With one exception.Why can't Dave say "Hey, thanks for your opinion, but I'm not going to change my stuff," without someone saying "Oh, so you don't want to improve?" The Hell? Who decides what's "improvement"? The critics? The fanboys? The artsy-fartsy guys that only hold the most revolutionary of comic art as worth reading? Wrong. Dave Hopkins does, 'cause it's his art. Now, it's a 'nuff said.Mercer------------------
"I have often been described like a lighthouse in a swamp--brilliant but useless."

Ordinary Guy · Post by **Ordinary Guy** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:39 am

David,Throwing a rock at the boat you missed, isn't going to do you any good. Hangdog gave you specific things you could do to change Jack, and make it better. Because as the world of Jack now stands, it doesn't make any sense.I at first thought, that that was the whole point. I thought it was a brilliantly subtle satire. I thought that Jack acting like it's just here and there, was actually a double satire making fun of how people in real life think heaven and hell are just. I thought that the Tet & Trixi story was just your way of saying, hey it can work, just not often. But it looks to me (from your posts in this thread) like I thought wrong.Again I repeat Hangdog did not just say "Improve your art" he gave you one good thing you could do to make Jack's world stand up to logical criticism; (the belief that punishment betters the punished) That coupled with Hell becoming temporary, lasting only as long as it took to make the damned good through punishment, would make the world of Jack work.He never said you were going to "fall flat on your face" if you didn't change. What he meant is that you aren't going anywhere if you don't improve. Don't you see the compliment in that? He thinks and so do almost all us critics, that you have potential. Do not waste it making a Spawn fanfic, or at least come clean that it is such when asked.
On another note, I haven't seen your mentioned discussion about your criminal, violent, tendencies. But it is worth noting that I too saw that in your art, particulary in the archive Karma posted when doing the Drip-Cookie Monster comparison. Drip seems to me to be your bad side. While Pepe is the good side. Drip often takes gorey revenge on people you consider personal enemies. And Drip shares many common traits with Pepe, the character you feel is you personally. It seems you have been rejected so many times (as evidenced by your notes in the archives) that rape of the objects of your affection really did become a possibility in real life for you. And Drip became your outlet for that emotion. Thats fine as long as it stays fiction, but often in life the lines between fiction and reality are blurred.It is worth noting also, that a popular theory of who Jack the Ripper was had him pegged as an artist who made art much like yours. If you ever were indicted on such charges, such artwork would be used against you, if it was found by the prosecuters, as evidence of violence.Preachy post, I know.

BigNemo · Post by **BigNemo** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:24 am

*yawn* *scratch*I am out of here, now. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">

Karma Leafbarer · Post by **Karma Leafbarer** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:48 am

***********POTENTIAL SPOILER....PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT A FRACTION OF PLOT REVEALED, LEAVE NOW********************************
are you gone yet....?
Alright, since apparently this isn't going to let up without a mild spoiler, fine. There IS a way out of hell. And if you will please just be patient and watch and read these stories instead of jumping all over Dave, you'll see that. In fact, in this very arc (which was completed before this thread began so nothing that's transpired on this forum has influenced its outcome or plot in the least) it will be mentioned. It will be developed more in later story arcs. As someone who's been told the Jack tale from beginning to end, I can tell you that there will be lots of comics where you say "shit, that isn't fair." but that there are also a lot of comics where you'll see things resolved and come to a full circle. It does have a point eventually and he's still just barely scratching the surface and introducing everyone right now...so of course it doesn't make much sense. Its like reading the foreward of a novel and then trying to understand the whole plot without reading the actual book.Ya know, in the time I've lived with him I've never seen Dave truly pissed off before, though I saw it this morning. He feels trapped now by the fact that certain people are going to nod their heads approvingly and say "See? I told you that it would make your comic better if you took my advice" when he gets to points in the plot that he was planning to make anyway in time. I think it becomes necessary to remind people that it IS just an online comic and something devised to entertain. Dave is not out to win any contests with his artwork or with his stories nor is he planning to preach The Ways Of Jack to the masses....he does it to pander to an audience that appreciates something he does in his free time and doesn't get paid for. When he started this comic, he didn't expect it to do great things...much like RTD and his other works, he did it to fulfill a personal goal of his own and to entertain people in the process. People are being entertained, he's telling the story he set out to tell, so I really don't see where he has any further obligations to fulfill. Am I saying you're not allowed to critique Jack/Dave/Dave's Art/Dave's Sanity/Insertotherobjectionalmaterialhere? Not at all. But I do think there comes a point where it goes beyond critique and becomes insulting no matter how eloquently its put. And insults don't help or solve anything. This entire exchange, I believe, has crossed that line. Nothing is being solved, the people debating are reaching for things to debate about and have resorted to nitpicking, people are chiming in when not being spoken to to white-knight someone else....its just....its a mess. Anyway, I've said my piece. Admittantly, I'm not a very good debater so I'll leave that floor to the people who clearly do it as a hobby. I guess, in a nutshell, be patient, let him tell his story, and don't call foul till you see where it's all going. Dave has some things to say on the matter so that it doesn't look like I'm speaking for him when he gets out of the shower so I'll leave the podium to him now. Bye.

Cypress · Post by **Cypress** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:04 am

You know what keeps on making me come back? This place is fun! The stip is ubber entertaining, the peole here actualy have knowlegde on things, the host is a witty nice uy and the special guests are cool, e-nirvana. And over the last few months if I have offended anybody I apologize to anyone (Even my cat who I called a little retarded bitch for scratching me while I was petting her <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">) for being a dickhole. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">------------------
Arena Master
--------------
What happens when you die? flip the switch and find out!

Courage · Post by **Courage** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:58 am

Originally posted by Hangdog:I had some hopes for Fin and Courage because their criticisms of Jack were true, perceptive and articulate. However I began to have my doubts when they cited comic books and pop-culture ramplings from the early 80's as references for developing a moral system.Oh, you wound me, I bleed. Tell me, is Gnosticism a comic book or an artifact of early-80s pop-cutlure?Finally Courage allowed himself to get dragged into a debate over the meaning of "mu," and showed himself to be just another Internet pedant: highly educated, but unlettered and asocial.I am not here to socialise. And for that matter what kind of a half-wit chooses furry comic web boards as a forum to demonstrate his erudition?------------------
Courage

BigNemo · Post by **BigNemo** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Courage:
I am not here to socialise. And for that matter what kind of a half-wit chooses furry comic web boards as a forum to demonstrate his erudition?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe... you?

DarkBlood_Warwing · Post by **DarkBlood_Warwing** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:56 am

woah.....we need a Jack Chick for "paganism"This Dave's Jack isn't saying "ok, you aren't a grovling pawn of god, you are gay, not chrstain, you role play, think aniamls have souls, belive in science's teachings...you will try in hell!"you can be the most moraly person, but if your god is an orange witha face, then you are just as bad as rapists and such.it's s shame....only fundmentmlist men can have heaven. Fendmentlist polygamurs men! oh yes..the more women he has the better his kingdom....
*growls*
I think I will write with all my conglmartation-phantmoed theological ideals.1) grey-god, neotrine "middle child syndrome" theroyneotrine. Hell god, Heaven god, earth-netural deity. the netural deity is most powerfull, the other just have some 'spiritual' shrtnth...but get attinmtion. thus, wrath of "pay attintion to me dammit!" why things go wrong.darklight revisal-dark is holy, holy is hellish, 'devil' pretends to be god, gains power through love and attintion, 'god' gets harmed. Your tricky devil may be your god, so don't be so proud to call witches "satin worshipers", they may be in the right mind. pride is a sin ne? being pround of harboring the correct religion is your undowing.deiversity to save thruth-supreme forse creates others to preach and "create" parts of faith, these spirits preach ideals via others, create follower souls who live to preach, thus creating a dirversion. we all know people who know stuff are dangerous."heaven""hell""earth""alstral plane""hall of harboring" (HOH is like judgment and a waiting station for those to relive)for 10 bucks I will tell the rest

DarkBlood_Warwing · Post by **DarkBlood_Warwing** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:58 am

woah.....we need a Jack Chick for "paganism"This Dave's Jack isn't saying "ok, you aren't a grovling pawn of god, you are gay, not chrstain, you role play, think aniamls have souls, belive in science's teachings...you will try in hell!"you can be the most moraly person, but if your god is an orange witha face, then you are just as bad as rapists and such.it's s shame....only fundmentmlist men can have heaven. Fendmentlist polygamurs men! oh yes..the more women he has the better his kingdom....
*growls*
I think I will write with all my conglmartation-phantmoed theological ideals.1) grey-god, neotrine "middle child syndrome" theroyneotrine. Hell god, Heaven god, earth-netural deity. the netural deity is most powerfull, the other just have some 'spiritual' shrtnth...but get attinmtion. thus, wrath of "pay attintion to me dammit!" why things go wrong.darklight revisal-dark is holy, holy is hellish, 'devil' pretends to be god, gains power through love and attintion, 'god' gets harmed. Your tricky devil may be your god, so don't be so proud to call witches "satin worshipers", they may be in the right mind. pride is a sin ne? being pround of harboring the correct religion is your undowing.deiversity to save thruth-supreme forse creates others to preach and "create" parts of faith, these spirits preach ideals via others, create follower souls who live to preach, thus creating a dirversion. we all know people who know stuff are dangerous."heaven""hell""earth""alstral plane""hall of harboring" (HOH is like judgment and a waiting station for those to relive)for 10 bucks I will tell the rest

Hangdog · Post by **Hangdog** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 11:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had some hopes for Fin and Courage because their criticisms of Jack[/i] were true, perceptive and articulate. However I began to have my doubts when they cited comic books and pop-culture ramblings from the early 80's as references for developing a moral system.Oh, you wound me, I bleed. Tell me, is Gnosticism a comic book or an artifact of early-80s pop-cutlure?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The way you present it, it could be either. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Finally Courage allowed himself to get dragged into a debate over the meaning of "mu," and showed himself to be just another Internet pedant: highly educated, but unlettered and asocial.I am not here to socialise. And for that matter what kind of a half-wit chooses furry comic web boards as a forum to demonstrate his erudition?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What, indeed...