Beltane or the Boss. Or Both.

[Labrusca]

I can't decide which one Ben should go after, Beltane or the Boss. The boss is a weak-willed schlump who deserves having something stuck up his rear to stiffen his backbone, but Beltane is the quintessential "let's get along with everyone, as long as I get MY way" type. How about they both be used to replace something in the missing Nativity scene, like the back ends of two camels?

[Frost Wraith]

This is a situation where most forms of negative reaction would be both harmful and unproductive. The reason both the Boss

[UncleMonty]

The boss has at least an excuse. In this litigation-happy world we live in, the safest route is the most profitable both for the company and for the manager of that store. If anyone complains about anything, the safest path is to remove that thing even if it brought happiness to others.

Beltane, on the other hand, is just another person making use of the strength of weakness. If you can claim that someone stronger is oppressing you, most courts of law will be inclined to take up your cause. Your claim doesn't have to be reasonable or true, unfortunately.

[Frost Wraith]

Again, your only seeing if from your point of view. Does that make you wrong? No, it doesn

[Labrusca]

Frost Wraith:

Suggest you go back through the archives, or get the Uber CD, and also read a mess of the letters in this forum. Say, the last 20 or 30 threads. And be sure to read Ralph's journal.

Ralph is making a point about how a few whiny liberals are trying to take Christ out of Christmas, as well as religion out of the country. Beltane represents them, and the boss represents the spineless idiots that are now so paralyzed by fear of lawsuits, they take away things like Nativity scenes without even being threatened. That's the atmosphere of fear people like the ACLU have created over Christmas decorations, Halloween parties, etc.

Ben recognizes this and is not only ticked at Beltane, but the boss for caving in to her, when everyone else in the place wants the decorations.

[Pix_kitty]

I am probably not the best person to post this, there are others far more learned than me and I shall in all possibility have my arguments ripped to shreds but as we all feel a need to express ourselves over something close to our hearts here goes:

I'm a devout person. I belive in my religion of choice. Does it ocasionally irk me that I'm immeresed in a culture that doesn't hold the same values/beliefs I do? Well frankly on ocasion, yes. Most of the time it is easly ignorible, even perfectly fine with me. To my mind if it brings peace and happyness to them I whole heartedly incourage their practace and even proclamation of their religion (wear a cross, an "I <3 my bible" t-shirt whatever) but sometimes and only sometimes, usualy around Christmas time I begin to feel really alienated... very out of place and judged. I know it's mostly in my own head so I try really hard to ignore it and really the comercilization of christmass has been a boon to me in that reagard. So say what you will but really I'd feel unconfortable (admitedly probably not enough to complain) but even so slightly unconfortable working in a store with a neitivity (sp?) scene out front. Not out of any reall objection to the religion in general but because it would be a very visual reminder of that belief gap and would make it hit all the more harder home that were I to celebarate my beliefs in the same extreamly public manner I could be taunted,harrased posibly even harmed. So really I know it's just a comic and so on but really don't judge beltane to harshly,
remember that Chritianity too at one point was reactionary minority and try to understand how it would feel should you be practicing you religion in a "pagan" state.

anyways feel free to dicect and so on

Pix

PS: don't think also that just because a religion is "free" it engenders any less of a serious and devout beleif.

[RHJunior]

I think I shall continue to judge Beltane and her ilk as harshly, if not more so, than before. Not merely Wiccans, but leftists in general... who go hand-in-hand with their ideologies.

They PREACH 'tolerance,' 'acceptance,' and that all faiths and religions and ideologies are equally valid.

What they PRACTICE is government-sponsored strangling of any ideology other than their own.

Can you get your mind around this fact? They are using <I>government and judicial force</i> to bar people from exercising or expressing their Christian faith <I>on the biggest Christian holiday of the calendar year.</i>

And blibbering about how Christians would feel in a pagan-dominated society cuts no mustard with me. We know how Christians would feel in a pagan-dominated society----<I>extra crispy,</i> that's how they'd feel. It was pagans throwing Christians to the lions and using them as pitch-covered torches to light their royal feasts.
We've seen how pagans treated <I>each other,</i> too. You want to know why Christians are so uncomfortable around "wiccans?" Do a quick websearch on "the Wicker Man" sometime. Or check out the blood grooves on the sacrificial slab in Stonehenge.


No, I'm not interested in "tolerance." It tends to be nothing more than an invitation for other people to TEST that tolerance... and see how far backward they can bend you before you snap.

[Frost Wraith]

They PREACH 'tolerance,' 'acceptance,' and that all faiths and religions and ideologies are equally valid.

What they PRACTICE is government-sponsored strangling of any ideology other than their own.

Can you get your mind around this fact? They are using <I>government and judicial force</i> to bar people from exercising or expressing their Christian faith <I>on the biggest Christian holiday of the calendar year.</i>

Well, God did tell his people that the world would be out to get them, so its really no surprise. Doesn't make it less irritating though....

And blibbering about how Christians would feel in a pagan-dominated society cuts no mustard with me. We know how Christians would feel in a pagan-dominated society----<I>extra crispy,</i> that's how they'd feel. It was pagans throwing Christians to the lions and using them as pitch-covered torches to light their royal feasts.

There have been just as many and terrible atrocities comitted in the name of the Christian God. Inqusitions, witch burnings, werewolf burnings, crusades, torture, invasion. It goes on just as long.
Now you could easily argue that there is a huge difference between the two in that the "christian" inqusitors and crusaders were not really acting as christians, but were just using God's name to do un-Godly things. While the pagan religions did it because it <i> was </i> demanded of them. And in that way it is true, they are two very different things. But the core behind them is the exact same. Fear, ignorance, and just plain human cruelty. The pagan people lived in fear and desperatly tried to comprehend a nature and world around them they didn't understand. And when peopel try to bring something into thier relm of udnerstanding they can be shockingly drastic or erratic. Which would explain the emergance of these other religions. Nature and the world was powerful, and confusing, and they tried to bring it into thier relm of understanding by forming and worshipping the gods. The problem is that there is nothing there, and when people try to have a relationship with something that isn't there, it can get quite dangerous. The human mind filling in the titanic blanks where the god is supposed to be. Having them do things, and thinking that its what the god wants. And I wouldn't be surprised if more than one or a thousand or so high-priets in the ancient times had people killed in the name of some god or another just because they didn't like them, or they couldn't have thier way. I'm betting quite a few chruch leaders have done the same thign over the centuries, and if not death then other nasty things. The crusades were a few people wanting glory and riches and so manipulated masses of people, telling them all sorts of things that <i> sounds </i> like something that God wants. But a teaspoon of poison in a gallon of wine can be just and deadly if the poison spoon was left to itself. The knights and soldiers could barely read, so they knew little of the real Bible only what they were told. Again, Fear, Ignorance, and Cruelty. Of course over the ages it has changed much and each of those are used in different ways now, but its the same. I find that many people who refuse Jesus, do so because they dont' understand it, or because they feel that Christians are oppressors, or because corrupt christians and church leaders did unkind or cruel and just plain downright unchristian towards them. If this is their view, then is it surprising they feel threatened? I'm betting they are feeling just as crispy under the shadow of Christianity as we do under the shadow of an incresingly un-Christian world. Jesus lead best through example and through teaching, he stood up and said what he had to say, he didn't shout , he didn't yell but he tried to be as gentle as possible, as tolerant as possible without giving up the truth. Without moving an inch. He stayed the true path and stayed true to his father. That is the key difference, I think between Christian tolerance, and the World's tolerance.

Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.....

THERE! I'm done, sorry.....dont' hit me *collapses*

[Pix_kitty]

ahh.

*blinks* I think the term "pagan" as I used it was perhaps misenterprited,
I used it in it's traditional sence, as a sweeping term for all non-christian religions.

I'm also not really sure that you can claim early celtic/gaulish (wich is what I beleive you are refering to) religions were "made" to do evil things by their religion...In my personal experiance evil people will do evil things, good people good things, regardless of the dogma they follow. People in power will use any excusse they can get their hands on to keep those of a lower staus in fear.

"being givin the right to vote does not make a man wise anymore than being Christian makes him good" (forgive me as I am not entirely sure of the source here, I belive it was B. Franklin)

conversly being pagan doesn't = bad/evil ect...

I dunno the point I was really trying to get across was that people are people regardless of their ideologies, Some are good and some are bad
and that feeling uncomfortable around outward signs of alternate faiths is something everyone experiances. Earlyier in this strip Ben showed outward discomfort at Beltane's choice of religion/advertising of it *shrugs* tit for tat? (I do hope that the boss showed equal initiative in responding to ben's discomfort as he did to beltane's)

I know I'm not going to change your mind but *shrugs*

[Frost Wraith]

Oh! I never said that the religions were specifically made to make people do evil things. I said (or tried to, I ramble, sorry) is that when people try hard to understand the world around them and cant they attempt to drag it down to a level they can comprehend. They were made to make people do evil things, but they were made in an attempt to make sense of the world. The gods and goddesses were created in an attempt to make sense of everything. They are creations of the human minds (collective minds, not single ones) unfortunately the natural human tendency is to sin, so these other gods are faulty, and very much like (too much like) the humans that worship them.

Or there is the possibility that you were talking to RH and not me....in which case I back away quietly, face red.

[DracoDei]

<snip> were I to celebarate my beliefs in the same extreamly public manner I could be taunted,harrased posibly even harmed.

I neither know, nor particularly care in the present context whether this statement is true. It is sufficient that you believe it to be true.
Ok, so, just out of curiosity what is stopping you?...No, I mean it...
You got more important things to accomplish with your life than exercise your rights lest they disappear more than you already believe that they have? If so, then GOOD, you might have every right to be a little sore about the matter, but you can console yourself that you have even more important things to do.
Are you no hero? Well... that is a failing that most of us (myself included) share. It takes some guts to walk through the wrong side of town, just because it is YOUR public street too, even with a gun hidden in your armpit... (sorry, poor example, but I can

[RKCoon]

I have been reading thru this post with paticular interest, as it is an ongoing arguement between people elsewhere as well, not so much this comic in paticular, but where the rights, freedoms, and limits of religions, ALL religions, lie.

Allow me to step back a moment and summarise the comic itself, as it is a beautiful example. Ben was informed that the Christmas decorations were offending someone of another faith, and were tossed based upon this uncomfortableness. Alright. Now, Ben is complaining about the complaint, so to speak. Fair enough. However, perhaps I am in error, but if i recall, the woman in question, Beltane, Has yet to attempt to decorate in reflection of her Beleifs, is such not true? If so, one could say she wishes to be in a neutral working environment. (and if such were NOT true then ya shes blatantly out of line. ) Further, Speculate if she did in fact decorate according to her beleifs, would not Ben or others apon the site issue complaints? Myself, I would wager she feels very much justified, but is following in the steps of many fundamentalist --in any form -- before her, and is not seeing such.

Now, let me bump this into the real world context. I have noted a great deal of complaining in this topic alone of the, i shall quote, "the PC desire to remove the Christ from Christmas", or, perhaps more accurate, "What they PRACTICE is government-sponsored strangling of any ideology other than their own. " And yet, if one studies history (i do consider myself something of a very amature historian), one find that such things are not new, more, it was often the religion in power at the current time repressing any other ideology other than THEIR own. In the United States contrast, the government is very much predominantly Christian and catholic, and other beleifs struggle greatly to not only have the right (for, even if it is not in the US constitution, ((I am not sure of that part)) it would still follow that if the people of Christian faith have the right to beleive in such, then others, as well, have the right to beleive in thier own faiths, to say otherwise IS repression in its purest form) to celebrate thier own beliefs with anything approaching the same publicity as the Christian form, but the right to not nave to celebrate beleifs not of thier own. Further, In the historical context, One could rattle off any number of examples, from the Salem Witch Trials to the various, excessively bloody Crusades, as well as the actions of the Celts and Goths (check your history books, these are real, anceint cultures) in support of this statement. However, in the case of Beltane, i would hardly say she is resorting to fisticuffs to "strangle" other religions, would you not agree?

Perhaps a separate example is needed. If, for example, i were to say, "I am a Satanist", what would the general reaction be?

*pauses for a moment to observe the stunned silence*

Would it be safe to assume the reaction would be first of shock, then of anger or irritation? I beleive it would be. However, if i were to lay out my beleifs in detail, (and i will if requested) withOUT attaching that name, per se, the reaction could easily be entirely different.

I suppose the point i am driving at here, is that everyone IS different, and there ARE often beleifs that differ from our own. What is important is the fact that everyone remembers such, and allows for it, otherwise, emotions flare, and things just go downhill from there. Directed at the comic however, i would say this -- do i feel that Beltane was out of line in her complaint? I would say, if the company adopted a policy of not celebrating ANY holiday, then no she would not be, but otherwise, she would be out of line. Would, however , Ben be right in "going after" either Beltane or the boss for this? Well, I must ask, would he not be going against his very own beleifs, and what they stand for, in doin so?

As a final thought, I offer this -- the concept of forcing others to beleive waht one group beleives is absolutely nothing new at all --- for A N Y religion. The question lies in, where does humanity, as a race, and as individuals, put an END to such silly nonsence?
(sorry of that all, i get VERY long winded myself. )

[DracoDei]

I am much better at logic than I am at presenting myself well.

Actually, many aspects of social interaction are a weak areas of mine. I probably made the error of assuming too much about what your specific religion might be... I am sorry if such was the case.

[Labrusca]

Would, however , Ben be right in "going after" either Beltane or the boss for this? Well, I must ask, would he not be going against his very own beleifs, and what they stand for, in doin so?

We already know that Ben did quit (or was fired). The speculation is strictly a matter of plot - who did he explode at that got him fired? We'll know soon anyway.

[RHJunior]

Time for a refresher course on Freedom of Religion.

Fact of Life #1: Regardless of what the laws might be, the practical reality remains that <I><b>Noone can "make" you believe as they believe, even at gunpoint.</b></I> The nice thing about living in this country, however, is that we made it against the law to even try to do so.

Fact of Life #2: <I><B>The freedom to express and observe your religious beliefs is as integral as your right to have those beliefs in the first place. </I></b> Save where those bare minimum standards of social morality intervene (the vital provisions against stealing, lying, murder, etc), free people are only free if they are able to follow the moral dictates of their own religious conscience. That includes being able to publicly express their beliefs without lawless interference.... freedom of speech and press, commonly known as freedom of expression.

Fact of Life #3: <I><B>Freedom of RELIGION and Freedom of SPEECH does not equate to freedom from CRITICISM.</i></B> The purpose of free expression is to place ideas and beliefs out in public for consideration <I>and critique.</i> You have a right to believe as you wish, and to state those beliefs publicly; the rest of us have a right to reject them as a load of crap--- and tell you so to your face.<B><I>In other words, you do not have the right to never be offended.</b></I> And you CERTAINLY do not have the right to use the force of government to stifle anyone who "offends" or disagrees with you.

Ben and the other workers were not being "offended" by Beltane's actions. They were being CENSORED by her.

Mind, the store, as a private entity, is not morally or legally obligated to allow them to celebrate the holidays in the first place.... but neither is it morally or legally obligated to coddle people like Beltane to keep them from bruising their poor iddle feewings whenever the community at large chooses to celebrate its religious and cultural traditions.

[Alfador]

Since they are all employees of the store...

The appearance of the storefront is effectively "speaking" for all of them. After all, when someone looks at the storefront, they are inclined to think, even subconsciously, that the employees approve of what's out there. So...it ought to be within their rights to decide what goes up.

However...there is a difference of opinion here. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in that Beltane is forcing them to censor the others, when what she SHOULD have requested, is to EXERCISE her right to free speech...by putting up some decorations that she would find amenable.

And if both "factions" within the company find the other's decorations unpalatable...they'll have to find an agreement on one thing: whether they want BOTH sorts of decorations up...or NONE. Personally? I'd prefer both. It's a moral dilemma either way, and either way someone, maybe everyone, is not going to get what they want, but I'd prefer everyone speaking freely, to everyone silenced.

[Sharuuk]

OK....let me toss this in.

Fact: Christmas is not only an established religious holiday celebrated by a vast majority portion of the US...it is also an established FEDERAL HOLIDAY.

Question: Just exactly WHAT would Beltane be celebrating at this particular time of the year? And how would said celebration take place?

And as an aside.....if Beaver Boss is so worried about Beltane's feelings, then he needs to remove the entire inventory from the store that has been brought in specifically for Christmas. <sarcasm added>


Shaaruuk

[Frost Wraith]

Would it really matter at all if Beltane were celebrating anything? And again has anyone considered that maybe the Boss has no choice? I am quite serious when I say people are fired over such things because it leads to lawsuits. The head office would be less than appreciative. I also say again that this is one of the more ridiculous things to loose your job over. Its just lights an tinsel, people. He's not preventing prayer or forcing Ben to go against his beliefs. If Ben has the right to oppose the construction of a New Age/Occult section in the store, than Beltane has the right to oppose Christmas decorations. I

[RKCoon]

Frost Wraith, you have it essentially dead on. In the comic, the Beaver Boss is removing the outward expression of faith and beleif, and aftert checking, i couldnt determine weather he DID in fact or not remove the occult related items (amusing that hed time it for the arrival of a book Chastised by many "right wingers, flat out laughed at by the left wingers). However, I have to agree in the thought that yes Beltane is, id think, pushing the boundaries of freedom of expression versus freedom to NOT have to, well, endure other beleifs while at the workplace.

I say endure, for this reason -- for those of you, for example, Christian or Catholic readers, how comfortable would you be if your job had been decorated in the spirit of say, Winter Solstice? (in fact it is a Pagan holiday, occuring very close to, and i might add, claimed by many of the Pagan/Wiccan faiths to be the day that was borrowed/modified by Christianity in an attempt to increase converts; not saying that latter part it is or is not true as i cant really concrete prove it one way or another --- nor really care, as i dont celebrate either ) Or, for that matter, to get somewhat more extreme, if your work celebrated Black Mass? Or, if I were to use a non religional holiday i am aware of, Adolf Hitler's birthday? (I have personally run into this one, damned if i can remember the day tho, lol)

Somehow, I doubt you would be, based on your beleifs of what these religions are, be they accurate or not; Point is, the exact same sentiments are applied in reverse; MANY Pagans, Wiccans, and so on feel very uncomfortable in having to work in such an environment. To them, it is extra stress they would much rather do without --- and, i might add, they feel that being able to go without is something that peopple of "other" faiths, in general, get given to them.

Now, personally, I am of the belief that, if it IS a holday for your faith, whatever it may be, just take the day off. Celebrate as you will, in your home, butwhen it comes to work, work shouldbe just that -- work. (Personally, id like it seen taken a step further --- in the interest of fairness, make so NO religiously based holiday is a paid one; otherwise youd have ALL religions clamoring for THIER days to be paid. Leave such days as Rememberance Day and so on as Stat, however. THen, its strictly fair across the board. ) However --- when it comes to personal expression of faith, ie, the wearing of religious symbols, that SHOULD be tolerated by and from all faiths, and by the workplace, so long as it is not a safety consideration. Granted, many workplaces insist on a uniform or dress code of some kind, but i think it should be lenient insofar as jewellery goes; I will use myself as an example -- I do wear both a pair of pentagrams, the left inverted, the right not, separated by knots with an ankh dividing them. I wont get into what they represent in detail, suffice it to say, they DO represent what I beleive in, and i DO solidly feel i have every much the right to wear them as a Christian does thier cross, or a Jewish person thier Star of David i beleive it is, or so on.

In short --- I beleive firmly that I will not deny another the right to express themselves, so long as it causes harm to none. To me, that includes decoration, i may not like it, but i also know others dont like what i do, which is fair. I merely expect the same in return.

(Ya know, bit of a side thought --- tis too bad one cant get into a discussion with Ben himself, like ive seen done in other series, that would make for an impressive display. )

[Frost Wraith]

I actually started replying to this whole thing to reason out why Beltane, and people like her, do things like this. Not to say she was right. Beltane and those like her don