Red herring.
<B>Why is it that, whenever a Christian's moral sensibilities are aggressively offended--- not merely ignored but violently and blatantly insulted--- the first words out of other people's mouths is "IF IT OFFENDS YOU TO SEE IT, DON'T LOOK..." But when the situation is reversed, the christians are expected to become invisible in their own communities?</b>
If the wiccan's poor iddle feewings are hurt by having to be downwind of Santa Claus, the poor iddle wiccan is free to find another job.
And as to Christians working in an office that openly promoted the occult, such ludicrous hypothetics ignore the fact that the average Christian <I>wouldn't be caught dead working there in the first place.</i> And were they to inadvertently take employment at a place that subsequently revealed itself to be the instant the first pagan decoration went up, they'd hit the front door so fast they'd leave a contrail behind them.
But let's suppose a christian suddenly got cranial-rectal inversion and took a job at such a place. Let's suppose they came walking in the first day and started throwing a fit, <I>demanding that the entire pagan/occult store tear down its decorations, throw out its occultic merchandise, and that everyone working there start dressing and acting "like decent Christians".</i>
You know what the response from the Christian community would be when this pushy proselyte got fired for being such a pain in the ass to the other employees?
"Serves you right for working there in the first place, Jackass."
Like her real life counterparts, Beltane isn't "offended" because her beliefs are being attacked, or interfered with, or because a christmas celebration violates her society's mores (seeing as the moral values of western civilization are <I>derived from its Christian background</I>). She's just pissed that other people believe differently from her and express those beliefs in her presence.... don't they know they're supposed to be completely silent and implicitly agree with everything she believes?
Beltane or the Boss. Or Both.
Oh, indeed I do, I prolly relate more to her than most on this board do, no offence meant to any. 
I do fully understand where shes comin from, even tho i think shes over the line a tad. Your again most likely right, in that she prolly DOES veiw Christianity as an or the enemy. Often I find myself trying NOT to feel the same way, for various reasons, but i keep in mind to myself that they (not as a whole, but generally, actions of individuals within the group) are doing things and behaving in ways i find offencive, but again, like you said, Many are children, and behave as such. (myself i consider myself in the teenage years 
) I suppose i could add here I was not raised, nor am, Christian myself. 
I do fully understand where shes comin from, even tho i think shes over the line a tad. Your again most likely right, in that she prolly DOES veiw Christianity as an or the enemy. Often I find myself trying NOT to feel the same way, for various reasons, but i keep in mind to myself that they (not as a whole, but generally, actions of individuals within the group) are doing things and behaving in ways i find offencive, but again, like you said, Many are children, and behave as such. (myself i consider myself in the teenage years ) I suppose i could add here I was not raised, nor am, Christian myself. *raises an eyebrow at RHJunior's reply* I must admit, RH, that i both hope, and in fact in my own experience have found, that "the average Christian" is not near as hateful as you are apparently demonstrating. Indeed, I have found that reactions such as yours to be the exception to the Christian (and similar) norm, with the peoples of such faiths not so much turning a blind eye in the beleifs of others, but rather merely accepting such, while open to discussion without resorting to such...intense, wording. Further, I have found that Christians are often more likely to at least attempt to associate with, and even work for those of Wiccan and Pagan beleifs, as they, the Christians, often feel several things -- the want to learn, the want to spread word of thier faiths, and the like. Further, I might like to point out that the values of the Western world, as you say, did not all originate here, bu find thier roots along with the vast majority of the Caucasian members of the Western world that em/immigrated (whichever form it is, im not sure) to this continent, bringing with them thier beliefs of old and modifying as htey saw fit yes, but still originating in the "Old World". Further still, the notion that all of the Western beleifs and morales are derived solely of Christian origin is quite a niave and limited view --- views, as some of my more ...extreme friends might say, of the Right Wing Fundamentalist.
But, I digress. My comments here were not intended to illicit anger or rage, quite the contrarry; they were to invoke serious, honest debate without the need for emotions flaring at all; as i wished to epress my admittedly unique views, and I do apologise for causing you to feel as tho your beleifs are being "violently and blatantly insulted". I had hoped that tthose here had enough of an understanding, both of thier respective religions, an of the nature of humans to be able to discuss. I must admit, i hadnt intended to threaten your very core beleiefs with my mere words.
But, I digress. My comments here were not intended to illicit anger or rage, quite the contrarry; they were to invoke serious, honest debate without the need for emotions flaring at all; as i wished to epress my admittedly unique views, and I do apologise for causing you to feel as tho your beleifs are being "violently and blatantly insulted". I had hoped that tthose here had enough of an understanding, both of thier respective religions, an of the nature of humans to be able to discuss. I must admit, i hadnt intended to threaten your very core beleiefs with my mere words.
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UncleMonty
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Excuse me? Amidst your weasel-words, you have just called Ralph "hateful", hinted at racism and cultural bigotry, called him niave, and suggested him to be a "Right Wing Fundamentalist" - and then you tell us your coments were not intended to illicit (you meant elicit, I assume) anger, and suggest that Ralph is being oversensitive to your words?RKCoon wrote:*raises an eyebrow at RHJunior's reply* I must admit, RH, that i both hope, and in fact in my own experience have found, that "the average Christian" is not near as hateful as you are apparently demonstrating. Indeed, I have found that reactions such as yours to be the exception to the Christian (and similar) norm, with the peoples of such faiths not so much turning a blind eye in the beleifs of others, but rather merely accepting such, while open to discussion without resorting to such...intense, wording. Further, I have found that Christians are often more likely to at least attempt to associate with, and even work for those of Wiccan and Pagan beleifs, as they, the Christians, often feel several things -- the want to learn, the want to spread word of thier faiths, and the like. Further, I might like to point out that the values of the Western world, as you say, did not all originate here, bu find thier roots along with the vast majority of the Caucasian members of the Western world that em/immigrated (whichever form it is, im not sure) to this continent, bringing with them thier beliefs of old and modifying as htey saw fit yes, but still originating in the "Old World". Further still, the notion that all of the Western beleifs and morales are derived solely of Christian origin is quite a niave and limited view --- views, as some of my more ...extreme friends might say, of the Right Wing Fundamentalist.
But, I digress. My comments here were not intended to illicit anger or rage, quite the contrarry; they were to invoke serious, honest debate without the need for emotions flaring at all; as i wished to epress my admittedly unique views, and I do apologise for causing you to feel as tho your beleifs are being "violently and blatantly insulted". I had hoped that tthose here had enough of an understanding, both of thier respective religions, an of the nature of humans to be able to discuss. I must admit, i hadnt intended to threaten your very core beleiefs with my mere words.
I can only imagine your words should you choose to actually insult someone!
Moreover, upon reading through this thread I find no hateful language in Ralph's posts. He has explained the concept of "Freedom of Speech" admirably and concisely. I've always felt that those who best understand what they say, say it most briefly.
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Frost Wraith
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RK: he is not being hateful, but it is painfully obvious that he is very, very passionate about this subject, judging from the care, thought, and emotion he puts into his replies. Sniping at him through commentary is not helpful, and it will not sell your point. And apologizing for it and then doing it does not excuse it.
RH: I think I
RH: I think I
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LoneWolf23k
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Frankly, dispite being Christian myself (even if only a lapsed Catholic), I'd have no problem working in a store openly promoting the occult if I could get the job. It wouldn't affect my beliefs none, and I'm not perticularly interested in proselyting, either.
But then, like I said, I'm a lapsed Catholic. What works for me may not work for others.
As for the whole "Persecution of Pagans" deal.. I think the Pagans of North America should be thankful that they live in a society that actually accepts their presence as something other then heretics and witches.
I think that everyone, Christian and Pagan alike, should take a hard, long look at the history of the interaction of religions in the past before complaining about religious rights in our day and age. We should be thankful that nowadays, such conflicts are fought with complaints, petitionning and litigation, rather then with weapons and torture, like they used to.
I won't deny that Christians have, in the past, done horrible things to pagans, as well as to jews and even to christian heretics. No more then I'll deny that christians themselves suffered horribly at the hands of the Romans and other pagan societies before the religion itself became a power.
But as Beltane herself has said: "It's in the Past. We don't do that now." I like to think that we've ALL evolved a bit, christian and non-christian alike, that we can possibly reduce the concept of religious conflict to little more then small discussions like this one.
Maybe it's a pipe dream.. But hey, if we've managed going from fighting with the point of a sword to fighting with the point of a pen, I think we can take some extra steps in the right direction..
After all, not only did Jesus himself say "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword".. But so did pagan societies like the vikings consider that disputes should be settled through discussion and negociation, rather then violence.
Unnecessary violence, or even unnecessary hatred, is never a good thing.
But then, like I said, I'm a lapsed Catholic. What works for me may not work for others.
As for the whole "Persecution of Pagans" deal.. I think the Pagans of North America should be thankful that they live in a society that actually accepts their presence as something other then heretics and witches.
I think that everyone, Christian and Pagan alike, should take a hard, long look at the history of the interaction of religions in the past before complaining about religious rights in our day and age. We should be thankful that nowadays, such conflicts are fought with complaints, petitionning and litigation, rather then with weapons and torture, like they used to.
I won't deny that Christians have, in the past, done horrible things to pagans, as well as to jews and even to christian heretics. No more then I'll deny that christians themselves suffered horribly at the hands of the Romans and other pagan societies before the religion itself became a power.
But as Beltane herself has said: "It's in the Past. We don't do that now." I like to think that we've ALL evolved a bit, christian and non-christian alike, that we can possibly reduce the concept of religious conflict to little more then small discussions like this one.
Maybe it's a pipe dream.. But hey, if we've managed going from fighting with the point of a sword to fighting with the point of a pen, I think we can take some extra steps in the right direction..
After all, not only did Jesus himself say "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword".. But so did pagan societies like the vikings consider that disputes should be settled through discussion and negociation, rather then violence.
Unnecessary violence, or even unnecessary hatred, is never a good thing.
Frost Wraith: You have it exactly on; I was demonstrating exactly what he said, just expanding on it -- How people, on BOTH sides, react to something voilently and flagrantly insulting --- BUT how those issuing such do not see it as such. He found my comments quite pointed, i grant you that --- as I found his to be the same. (example - the generalisations made, to say nothing of his "slanging" of a legally recognized and respected religion, and the hinting of how Paganism/Wiccan is beneath a "proper Christian" come immediately to mind). However, weather his comments were or were not meant to BE insulting, i myself took none; i merely practiced one of my own doctorines - treat those as one may, bearing in mind that they are free to do the same. Such works both ways. Further, i never said he could NOT speak what he thought, i merely spoke my own thoughts - IE, as the saying goes, I may not agree with what you say, but ill defend your right to say it.
Let me step back a moment and see if i can clarify this. In your comment that, you felt great pity for Beltane, weather you realised such or not, such a thing does border upon insulting, for many that say such. Example, would you feel insulted if i said i feel pity for you for your beleifs? I would imagine it to be very much an instinctive responce, weather it is an appropreate responce or not. Its very much tantamount to stating we feel sorry for you because you are flat wrong. Nothing new to that comment, and indeed, many Pagans and Wiccans feel the same, if not more so, to such sentiments, hypocritical it may be. Weather or not it is right does not make it any less pointed. However, my own thought on it is, in short - Who cares? One does not beleive as you? Fine. you may debate and discuss it,otherwise, accept it and move on. I dont give a shlit, its your life, your path to choose, all i can do is offer options for you to consider. Granted many -- on BOTH sides of the religious fence, i will stress -- Do not do this. Thats the shameful part that i see.
As a final note, I have always agreed in the concept (if not the terminology ) in "the devil is in the details"; in that, those that have put the most thought into it are as often as not very long winded, detailed, and thurough.
Let me step back a moment and see if i can clarify this. In your comment that, you felt great pity for Beltane, weather you realised such or not, such a thing does border upon insulting, for many that say such. Example, would you feel insulted if i said i feel pity for you for your beleifs? I would imagine it to be very much an instinctive responce, weather it is an appropreate responce or not. Its very much tantamount to stating we feel sorry for you because you are flat wrong. Nothing new to that comment, and indeed, many Pagans and Wiccans feel the same, if not more so, to such sentiments, hypocritical it may be. Weather or not it is right does not make it any less pointed. However, my own thought on it is, in short - Who cares? One does not beleive as you? Fine. you may debate and discuss it,otherwise, accept it and move on. I dont give a shlit, its your life, your path to choose, all i can do is offer options for you to consider. Granted many -- on BOTH sides of the religious fence, i will stress -- Do not do this. Thats the shameful part that i see.
As a final note, I have always agreed in the concept (if not the terminology
) in "the devil is in the details"; in that, those that have put the most thought into it are as often as not very long winded, detailed, and thurough.
Now, if we could just convince the extremist factions in Ireland...LoneWolf23k wrote:I think that everyone, Christian and Pagan alike, should take a hard, long look at the history of the interaction of religions in the past before complaining about religious rights in our day and age. We should be thankful that nowadays, such conflicts are fought with complaints, petitionning and litigation, rather then with weapons and torture, like they used to.
I won't deny that Christians have, in the past, done horrible things to pagans, as well as to jews and even to christian heretics. No more then I'll deny that christians themselves suffered horribly at the hands of the Romans and other pagan societies before the religion itself became a power.
But as Beltane herself has said: "It's in the Past. We don't do that now." I like to think that we've ALL evolved a bit, christian and non-christian alike, that we can possibly reduce the concept of religious conflict to little more then small discussions like this one.
Maybe it's a pipe dream.. But hey, if we've managed going from fighting with the point of a sword to fighting with the point of a pen, I think we can take some extra steps in the right direction..
After all, not only did Jesus himself say "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword".. But so did pagan societies like the vikings consider that disputes should be settled through discussion and negociation, rather then violence.
Unnecessary violence, or even unnecessary hatred, is never a good thing.
(don't think I'm picking on them - my grandmother was born a Protestant in Belfast, and I still have relatives over there who will duck when a car backfires.)
When trouble arises and things look bad, there's always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is insane.
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Frost Wraith
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Key phrase i would like you, and the rest, to consider, Frost Wraith, and what makes religious debates so easily inflamed --- "Because I know it to be the truth." Just as you are solid in YOUR beleifs, I am in my own, as are others. I think the difference may be that while i know and understand that BOTH parties are solid in thier convictions, i am not so certain weather many Christians realise that Pagans, Wiccans, and so on are just as resound in thiers.
Y'know, I'm a Pagan, but Beltany seems (as I read it) a Store Bought Neo-Pagan http://utlt.keenspace.com/d/20020125.html From the way I've read her first appearences, she's the type that buys "Pagan Rituals For Dummies". But I may be looking at things differently
I'm different from that. (Shadow3397's reply to Mr Hayes' rant is me BTW, and I still have the e-mail notification of what someone replied to me with that was never unscreened if anyone wants to see it) My mother and grandmother taught me what I know, from the spirits, the seasons etc., and while science says otherwise, I believe my Eskimo ancistors who proved themselves highly honorable to The Great One In The Sky (read: our name for God) live on in the northern lights (different tribes have different histories for it, some believe that it's a fortelling of disaster, mine believes differently).
As far as things go, well, let's just say that we have age old Christmas decorations that my family puts up happily. It's the celibration of the birth of The Great One on the Ground, everyone else calls Him Jesus though. Plus the fringe benefits of Santa ain't that bad either ;D
I've never felt uncomfortable around other religous markings or talking to others about their beliefs or mine.
I'm different from that. (Shadow3397's reply to Mr Hayes' rant is me BTW, and I still have the e-mail notification of what someone replied to me with that was never unscreened if anyone wants to see it) My mother and grandmother taught me what I know, from the spirits, the seasons etc., and while science says otherwise, I believe my Eskimo ancistors who proved themselves highly honorable to The Great One In The Sky (read: our name for God) live on in the northern lights (different tribes have different histories for it, some believe that it's a fortelling of disaster, mine believes differently).
As far as things go, well, let's just say that we have age old Christmas decorations that my family puts up happily. It's the celibration of the birth of The Great One on the Ground, everyone else calls Him Jesus though. Plus the fringe benefits of Santa ain't that bad either ;D
I've never felt uncomfortable around other religous markings or talking to others about their beliefs or mine.
Allow me to introduce myself--Corporal "Bo" Kiana, Ex-Army, "Warmongering Psychopath Tool!"
The boss needs a serious reality check if not a swift kick in the butt if he's gonna designate the very person who caused all this crap to decide what's offensive and what isn't. Like she's gonna be real "objective".....nothing like a conflict of interest here. Ben and party would have a VERY legitimate and serious complaint on this point.
Now THAT'S offensive!
Shaaruuk
Now THAT'S offensive!
Shaaruuk
We are NOT surrounded.....this is a "target rich" environment!
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Frost Wraith
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Naw....that won't work either......pretty much any decision he'd make could be challenged because he is the boss, and Beltane could make the charge that he was discriminating against her etc......!Frost Wraith wrote:Even with all my problems with building on charachters I have to agree, thats not the best person to pick. He actually should have done it himself.
Shaaruuk
We are NOT surrounded.....this is a "target rich" environment!
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Frost Wraith
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No, absolutely not....Beltane is not the better choice. No matter what is decided, somebody's gonna be PO'd about it.Frost Wraith wrote:Beltane is the better choice? Who? whose a better choice? hes the boss, do some frigging managing.
Spineless Beaver Boy here should have just told Beltane that this was Christmas and this was the Christmas season sale and to just get over herself. Nobody's trying to convert her, nobody's condemning her for her beliefs, (at least Ben isn't doing so publicly) and she's not going to inflict her insecurities on everybody else by bitching about the decorations......period!
Shaaruuk
We are NOT surrounded.....this is a "target rich" environment!
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Frost Wraith
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