Snore.....
Snore.....
If I wanted to be preached to, I'd look at a Jack Chick comic.
Yes, but unlike Jack Chick, I was _Cheering_ when I got to the last panel of this comic. Jack Chick is an immoral fount of hatred. This is not.
If you are so disturbed by any religous content, perhaps you should go read flem http://www.flemcomics.com
To The Author: YAY! Go Bear![/url]
If you are so disturbed by any religous content, perhaps you should go read flem http://www.flemcomics.com
To The Author: YAY! Go Bear![/url]
I'll agree that you can't compare this comic to Jack Chick material. And I may disagree with the message, but I nevertheless enjoy the story. As a matter of fact, I disagree with most messages in UTLM, but I still enjoy reading it: I agree that there's nothing wrong with Harry Potter 
, but am in favor of gun control (what's this statistic saying that "law-abiding citiziens" use guns to prevent crimes 10 times more often than criminals use them? And does this statistic count policemen 
); I am a passionate atheist (luckily for me, I don't live in the US, but in Europe, so it's no big deal); basically, I don't share many opinions with the cartoonist (altough it seems that we agree on the matter of jerks). But just as I often try to explain my point to the people I know, it is perfectly normal that Ralph expresses his opinions. If the preachy parts of the comic annoy you so much that you don't enjoy reading it anymore, then just go for the other webcomics on Keenspot (try "Ozy and Milly", for instance 
). If you enjoy the non-preachy parts of the comic, but hate the preachy parts, and can't read the former whithout the later, then...Well, it ain't a perfect world
, but am in favor of gun control (what's this statistic saying that "law-abiding citiziens" use guns to prevent crimes 10 times more often than criminals use them? And does this statistic count policemen ); I am a passionate atheist (luckily for me, I don't live in the US, but in Europe, so it's no big deal); basically, I don't share many opinions with the cartoonist (altough it seems that we agree on the matter of jerks). But just as I often try to explain my point to the people I know, it is perfectly normal that Ralph expresses his opinions. If the preachy parts of the comic annoy you so much that you don't enjoy reading it anymore, then just go for the other webcomics on Keenspot (try "Ozy and Milly", for instance ). If you enjoy the non-preachy parts of the comic, but hate the preachy parts, and can't read the former whithout the later, then...Well, it ain't a perfect world -
UncleMonty
- Cartoon Hero
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- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Must cartoon characters all be atheists, then?
Real-life people are all quite different. Some hold religious beliefs, some do not.
Anyone familiar with this comic should know by now that it expounds values which you will not find in the internet-at-large. At this time of year, one normally expects to find internet forums and newsgroups filled with the most vicious slander imaginable regarding Christianity, Christmas, Western Civilization, Capitalism, or the United States of America.
It's rather refreshing to fine a few small corners of the web, like this comic, where religious / social / political hatred is NOT the order of the day.
Anyone familiar with this comic should know by now that it expounds values which you will not find in the internet-at-large. At this time of year, one normally expects to find internet forums and newsgroups filled with the most vicious slander imaginable regarding Christianity, Christmas, Western Civilization, Capitalism, or the United States of America.
It's rather refreshing to fine a few small corners of the web, like this comic, where religious / social / political hatred is NOT the order of the day.
The stat is that 2million crimes are halted per annum by *private citizens.* (this of course does not count all the ones that dont qualify for a police report.... hard to report a crime that doesn't happen, after all.)
Also of note is that *armed officers of the law* commit more accidental shootings than all the private gun owners in the USA combined....
http://www.a-human-right.com/ for more information on the right to bear arms.
Also of note is that *armed officers of the law* commit more accidental shootings than all the private gun owners in the USA combined....
http://www.a-human-right.com/ for more information on the right to bear arms.
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
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The JAM
- Cartoon Hero
- Posts: 2281
- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: Somewhere in Mexico...
- Contact:
Well...
[...unWARP!!!]
Good evening.
I, for one, don't so much as *enjoy* Mr. Chick's work as much as I like the information he provides.
I also enjoy this comic extremely. First one I know of where the virgin mocks the fornicator and not the other way around, which we see practically everywhere.
And while I may not agree 100% with everything exposed here even though the author and myself are both Christians to the core, I commend his work and cheer him on to excel.
And yes, I, too, was cheering Ben on, yelling at him so he could see the Light. Few comics do that to me.
And now that Ben found the clue to this little problem of his, he is fully empowered with authority to order the Posse to nail this wretched clown to the nearest piece of wood around.
Or he could do it himself and enjoy destroying his former self which tried to lead him to self-destruction.
But how could he have done that? He didn't have any weapons, or was the clown going to pull a gun/knife out of nowhere and let Ben do the honors?
Until next time, remember:
I AM THE J.A.M.
Good evening.
[WARP!!!]
Good evening.
I, for one, don't so much as *enjoy* Mr. Chick's work as much as I like the information he provides.
I also enjoy this comic extremely. First one I know of where the virgin mocks the fornicator and not the other way around, which we see practically everywhere.
And while I may not agree 100% with everything exposed here even though the author and myself are both Christians to the core, I commend his work and cheer him on to excel.
And yes, I, too, was cheering Ben on, yelling at him so he could see the Light. Few comics do that to me.
And now that Ben found the clue to this little problem of his, he is fully empowered with authority to order the Posse to nail this wretched clown to the nearest piece of wood around.
Or he could do it himself and enjoy destroying his former self which tried to lead him to self-destruction.
But how could he have done that? He didn't have any weapons, or was the clown going to pull a gun/knife out of nowhere and let Ben do the honors?
Until next time, remember:
I AM THE J.A.M.
Good evening.
[WARP!!!]
My point is getting ignored......
Except the point I am TRYING to make is being ignored.
I read Ralph's strips because they give me a laugh.
And I haven't laughed at UTLT since the "evil clown" showed up.
I stopped reading "Doonesbury" because they are no longer funny.
I don't read "Boondocks" because I don't think it's funny at all.
Likewise "Mallard Fillmore."
There's an old saying from Hollywood, "If you want to send a message, call Western Union."
I don't like "message" comics, movies, TV shows and whatnot.
(Of ANY ideology, issue, whatever.)
And there is tons and tons of religious programming on TV, in newspapers, magazines, etc.
I can't throw a rock blindfolded without hitting something telling me what faith I should be.
This "anti-Christian bias" touted by some is a myth, spread around by those who want the "right" to cram their faith on everyone whether they want it or not.
And I (bleep)-ing DON'T want to be proseyltized by a faith I don't believe in.
Ralph, Nip n' Tuck has been consistently funny, with a few mild "issue strips" thrown in.
But the last couple weeks it's just been preachy crap.
I read Ralph's strips because they give me a laugh.
And I haven't laughed at UTLT since the "evil clown" showed up.
I stopped reading "Doonesbury" because they are no longer funny.
I don't read "Boondocks" because I don't think it's funny at all.
Likewise "Mallard Fillmore."
There's an old saying from Hollywood, "If you want to send a message, call Western Union."
I don't like "message" comics, movies, TV shows and whatnot.
(Of ANY ideology, issue, whatever.)
And there is tons and tons of religious programming on TV, in newspapers, magazines, etc.
I can't throw a rock blindfolded without hitting something telling me what faith I should be.
This "anti-Christian bias" touted by some is a myth, spread around by those who want the "right" to cram their faith on everyone whether they want it or not.
And I (bleep)-ing DON'T want to be proseyltized by a faith I don't believe in.
Ralph, Nip n' Tuck has been consistently funny, with a few mild "issue strips" thrown in.
But the last couple weeks it's just been preachy crap.
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ZOMBIE USER 12293
- Newbie
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- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:26 am
Here we go again, folks!
Alright, I didn't get nearly enough abuse in the Religion and Morality thread so lets see if I can stir the pot and keep this "logical and well reasoned" debate going.
I'll admit it, I saw the cross in Ben's hand and started to breathe heavily in a state of "atheist panic," but after a fairly short time thinking (and reading the wonderful comments by Sun Tzu and Uncle Monty), I calmed down and got ahold of myself.
Here's the first thing that should be noted: A person holding a symbol of their faith is not an automatic affront to anyone who doesn't believe in that faith. I refuse to buy into the prejudice (and that's what it is, folks... make no mistake) that every time a person declares thier belief, it's some form of "veiled attack" on those of us who don't happen to share that belief.
The second thing that should be noted is that UTLT has less to do with "shoving the Good Word down the throats of Those Who Must Be Saved" and more to do with a story about personal discovery and life's little foibles. Jack Chick is hardly a good comparason here, seeing as his personal mission is to make every non-Christian realize the "error of thier wicked ways"... and he does a pretty lousy job of it. Ralph's stories have precious little in the way of "converting the masses through hysterical tirades." The most I could cite on him about shoving his opinions on people was with the "handgun" episode, and that was more a statement of facts which support his position than an overt attempt to make every reader accept the use of firearms.
Thirdly (okay, is that even a word?), to Archae99's point that he hasn't laughed since the clown showed up. Okay, I'll admit the same... UTLT has taken a serious tone for the last few weeks. Again, big deal. Last time I checked, Ralph didn't have a contract with me saying "I promise to get you to at least crack a smile every other day." I'm not exactly thrilled with the way his Shlockiverse Crossover has concluded, but he's the author here and gets to set his tone the way he wants it. Your course of action is clear here Arch, either stop reading the strip or keep reading it. I seriously doubt that a comparison to Jack Chick or any other religious nut is going to make Ralph decide to go back to pratt-falls and Velvet *whump*ing into Ben's chest for a few laughs.
Finally, for Ralph. I'm not too clear on the Old Nature = Sin = Self-Destructive/Suicidal Tendancies bit. On the other thread I was able to point out the falicy of selfish behavior, but I'm not really clear on what your clown actually represents, particularly seeing as he seems pretty focused on the idea that Ben should off himself (or at least descend into a state of complete self-loathing). Could ya elaborate a bit more on him? I'll suspend my theological biases for the duration.
Anywho, Merry X-mas for all those who celebrate such,... just in case this forum goes down again before the holiday.
Noa
I'll admit it, I saw the cross in Ben's hand and started to breathe heavily in a state of "atheist panic," but after a fairly short time thinking (and reading the wonderful comments by Sun Tzu and Uncle Monty), I calmed down and got ahold of myself.
Here's the first thing that should be noted: A person holding a symbol of their faith is not an automatic affront to anyone who doesn't believe in that faith. I refuse to buy into the prejudice (and that's what it is, folks... make no mistake) that every time a person declares thier belief, it's some form of "veiled attack" on those of us who don't happen to share that belief.
The second thing that should be noted is that UTLT has less to do with "shoving the Good Word down the throats of Those Who Must Be Saved" and more to do with a story about personal discovery and life's little foibles. Jack Chick is hardly a good comparason here, seeing as his personal mission is to make every non-Christian realize the "error of thier wicked ways"... and he does a pretty lousy job of it. Ralph's stories have precious little in the way of "converting the masses through hysterical tirades." The most I could cite on him about shoving his opinions on people was with the "handgun" episode, and that was more a statement of facts which support his position than an overt attempt to make every reader accept the use of firearms.
Thirdly (okay, is that even a word?), to Archae99's point that he hasn't laughed since the clown showed up. Okay, I'll admit the same... UTLT has taken a serious tone for the last few weeks. Again, big deal. Last time I checked, Ralph didn't have a contract with me saying "I promise to get you to at least crack a smile every other day." I'm not exactly thrilled with the way his Shlockiverse Crossover has concluded, but he's the author here and gets to set his tone the way he wants it. Your course of action is clear here Arch, either stop reading the strip or keep reading it. I seriously doubt that a comparison to Jack Chick or any other religious nut is going to make Ralph decide to go back to pratt-falls and Velvet *whump*ing into Ben's chest for a few laughs.
Finally, for Ralph. I'm not too clear on the Old Nature = Sin = Self-Destructive/Suicidal Tendancies bit. On the other thread I was able to point out the falicy of selfish behavior, but I'm not really clear on what your clown actually represents, particularly seeing as he seems pretty focused on the idea that Ben should off himself (or at least descend into a state of complete self-loathing). Could ya elaborate a bit more on him? I'll suspend my theological biases for the duration.
Anywho, Merry X-mas for all those who celebrate such,... just in case this forum goes down again before the holiday.
Noa
A slight attempt at clarification, then.
Without revealing what's up and coming in the strip--- the clown wants Ben to self-destruct... his particular method isn't so much to drive Ben to suicide as to *destroy his will to live.*
As any person who deals with the ill can tell you, that can be more fatal than a gunshot wound....Some of the stranger stories out there involve perfectly healthy people who literally willed themselves to death...
Without revealing what's up and coming in the strip--- the clown wants Ben to self-destruct... his particular method isn't so much to drive Ben to suicide as to *destroy his will to live.*
As any person who deals with the ill can tell you, that can be more fatal than a gunshot wound....Some of the stranger stories out there involve perfectly healthy people who literally willed themselves to death...
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
-
David Adrian
- Regular Poster
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- Location: Portland, Oregon
- Contact:
Okay, I got here a bit late, but I'm still going to chime in. Ralph, while you and I don't share religions, I think we do share some of the same philosophical underpinnings. And I have to say, this current storyline is something I'm familiar with - my first online novel had some of these same elements, and those are some of the most autobiographical parts of it. While Ben would no doubt mock my beliefs (and he'd hardly be alone in that - I don't take myself all that seriously, either), I can see where he's coming from and I'm pulling for him. Whatever one chooses to label that nature, it's present in all of us to one degree or another, and if we don't learn to cope with it - through fighting it and refusing to ever give up, through refuting it, through accepting it and learning to deal with it or even use it - it will destoy us. I've seen it happen - been unable to prevent it in some cases - and it bothers me every time. I pray it always will. When I accept it as something that "just happens", I think I will have lost something very important to me.
Just so you know, Ralph - I think this is an important message. Thank you for taking up the flag. I salute you, and your efforts.
Just so you know, Ralph - I think this is an important message. Thank you for taking up the flag. I salute you, and your efforts.
There's a reason that people often see the expression of another opinion as an attack: They tend to think they're an ideological minority, which is constantly under attack by the world at large. Christians often there's a vast anti-Christian movement in the world, which can be seen in the removal of prayer in schools (which is, IMHO, not hostility, but a return to neutrality). Atheists, on the other hand, see the world around them as a big mass of religious nuts out to crush them by denial of the separation between Church and State, Jak Chick tracts, Falwell sermons...Conservatives say the entire world is degenerating into an amoral, depraved chaos; liberals see a conservative stranglehold on the media, the big business, and the State. Hitler claimed the Germans were persecuted by the Jews (odds are, he really believed it.). Ecologists see an immoral, business-dominated world that doesn't give a damn about the environnement. Pat Robertson says Christians in the US are persecuted in the same way Jews were in Nazi Germany (I apologize to Christians here for taking a *
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W.M.Y.L.G. Joe
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- Location: Cincinnati
- Contact:
I just wanted to note some of those things are societal developments, not something Jesus preached. Things like not being being allowed to wear a hat in church, for instance, aren't as much a part of Christianity as much as just something our society feels is a sign of respect. As for the homosexual thing, thats opening a whole other can of worms, so I'll leave that along for now so we can stick to the topic at hand.Actions which are neither self-destructive nor destructive of someone else, but are still considered by some to be bad, for reasons which may be rational or completely crazy (such 'actions ' [not necessarly actions] are: wearing a hat in a church, not wearing a hat in a synagogue, being born a Jew/black/asian/huspanic/white/green-with-pink-plka-dots, being a homosexual...)
I'll expand on my feelings on this later once I get back from my Film exam...
"If you take a slam, get up and land that sucker. Don't let it beat you." - Anon.
"God has the power to heal smooshed brains." - Gloria Higginbottom
"God has the power to heal smooshed brains." - Gloria Higginbottom
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ZOMBIE USER 12759
- Regular Poster
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:26 am
The redemption thing does sound a little... crazy at first, but it can make sense once you think about it for a bit. People want to do good, but in the end, people do bad things all the time. Even if you do not want to do evil things, it's a good bet you have found yourself thinking about them from time to time. There is a certain duality to human nature, both good and bad, and there's no escaping it. That's original sin. There's no escaping it, it is you. Fortunantly, God is willing to forgive you for that dark side you have. (Actually, it'd be pretty unfair of 'im not too, seeing as he's your designer, evolution notwithstanding, but I digress.) The best part is, if God can forgive you being essentially evil, at least part of the time, he can certainly forgive anything stupid you might do in this life. Basicly, you can't get redemption for yourself, because you already have it. How will you seek what you already have?
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The JAM
- Cartoon Hero
- Posts: 2281
- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: Somewhere in Mexico...
- Contact:
A few things.
[...unWARP!!!]
Good evening.
True redemption from evil and sin can only come from God *if* you willingly ask Him to do it.
Back to our strip, thanks for the explanation, Ralph. I'm sure plenty of us have felt that way, and thank God we have won that particular battle. I'm sure Ben can do it too.
You know, I wrote a fanfic precisely about self-destruction without actual suicide. Go to http://www.fanfiction.net -> Cartoons -> Chip & Dale's Rescue Rangers -> and scroll down until you see my story "Death of a Comedian".
And I am blessed too now that Ralph is exposing Bible truths. Keep up the great work, Ralph! You never know who might be reading, and who's life might be touched.
Until next time, remember:
I AM THE J.A.M.
Good evening.
[WARP!!!]
Good evening.
True redemption from evil and sin can only come from God *if* you willingly ask Him to do it.
Back to our strip, thanks for the explanation, Ralph. I'm sure plenty of us have felt that way, and thank God we have won that particular battle. I'm sure Ben can do it too.
You know, I wrote a fanfic precisely about self-destruction without actual suicide. Go to http://www.fanfiction.net -> Cartoons -> Chip & Dale's Rescue Rangers -> and scroll down until you see my story "Death of a Comedian".
And I am blessed too now that Ralph is exposing Bible truths. Keep up the great work, Ralph! You never know who might be reading, and who's life might be touched.
Until next time, remember:
I AM THE J.A.M.
Good evening.
[WARP!!!]
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ZOMBIE USER 12293
- Newbie
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:26 am
Ralph,
Appreciate the clear-up, though I was shooting for something a bit more on the existential nature of Sin and the way you were using it in your strip. I think I'll revisit that when you've completed the current storyline and save us from further speculation.
One of the more difficult concepts that religion in general and Christianity in particular deals with is the concept of sin and redemption. On the surface, it seems to be a "give and take" idea that focuses on "staying away from the bad things and aligning oneself with the good things," but it's far more intricate than that. There are factors like "intentional" and "inherent" sins, the importance of forgiveness, both from those we do wrong against and ourselves as well as God, etc. Some of it makes perfect sense in the practical world, but a good deal of it works in the realm of the metaphysical.
Take what I consider to be the linch-pin of Christianity: Original Sin and the concept of Salvation. In religious terms, we are all born in sin and therefore we are all born in a state of existance outside of God (I'm paraphrasing in a rather blunt fashion, but bear with me). It is a conscious act to get out of this state by accepting the death and sacrifice of God (or God's son, or however you want to phrase it). Now, I get the idea of being "born into sin" because, well... it doesn't take a genius to see how self-centered and narrow-minded we are as human beings. Salvation, on the other hand, isn't that easy to figure out. How did Jesus' death make up for our natural human failings? As a non-theistic type of thinker, this is perhaps the most difficult notion to work around, plus it begs alot of questions (all of which, I'm sure everyone here has heard a few thousand times before). The universal aspect of this, however, is fairly easy to define: We all know we're not the perfect beings that we think we should be (at least we know this if we can look at ourselves in an objective manner... anyone claiming perfection is either delusional or blind), and this poses a problem for us. We fail, don't do as much as we can or just lose ourselves to narrow-mindedness... and it's not easy to get out of that mindset.
I'd pose the question: does it require the belief in an All-Powerful, Morally Perfect God to get out of those moments of cold objective soul searching? Some people sure think so... and I can respect that. But this takes us back to personal ideology... Something that I think cheapens the moment into a "faith based set of standards." The abstract notions of self worth are tedious at best to define, let alone work with. We are all limited in ways that make a mockery of our dreams and ambitions. Living with limitation is part of what defines us as human.
I'm still not so sure about Ben's Clown... Somehow, I can't see what sin is in this sense, or how it makes itself into a vehicle of internalized hatred and crushed ambition. Self-loathing is fairly straightforward, but I get the feeling there is more to these ideas than what is represented in the strip.
But, I'll shut up and wait to see what happens before I get too into this thread.
Noa
Appreciate the clear-up, though I was shooting for something a bit more on the existential nature of Sin and the way you were using it in your strip. I think I'll revisit that when you've completed the current storyline and save us from further speculation.
One of the more difficult concepts that religion in general and Christianity in particular deals with is the concept of sin and redemption. On the surface, it seems to be a "give and take" idea that focuses on "staying away from the bad things and aligning oneself with the good things," but it's far more intricate than that. There are factors like "intentional" and "inherent" sins, the importance of forgiveness, both from those we do wrong against and ourselves as well as God, etc. Some of it makes perfect sense in the practical world, but a good deal of it works in the realm of the metaphysical.
Take what I consider to be the linch-pin of Christianity: Original Sin and the concept of Salvation. In religious terms, we are all born in sin and therefore we are all born in a state of existance outside of God (I'm paraphrasing in a rather blunt fashion, but bear with me). It is a conscious act to get out of this state by accepting the death and sacrifice of God (or God's son, or however you want to phrase it). Now, I get the idea of being "born into sin" because, well... it doesn't take a genius to see how self-centered and narrow-minded we are as human beings. Salvation, on the other hand, isn't that easy to figure out. How did Jesus' death make up for our natural human failings? As a non-theistic type of thinker, this is perhaps the most difficult notion to work around, plus it begs alot of questions (all of which, I'm sure everyone here has heard a few thousand times before). The universal aspect of this, however, is fairly easy to define: We all know we're not the perfect beings that we think we should be (at least we know this if we can look at ourselves in an objective manner... anyone claiming perfection is either delusional or blind), and this poses a problem for us. We fail, don't do as much as we can or just lose ourselves to narrow-mindedness... and it's not easy to get out of that mindset.
I'd pose the question: does it require the belief in an All-Powerful, Morally Perfect God to get out of those moments of cold objective soul searching? Some people sure think so... and I can respect that. But this takes us back to personal ideology... Something that I think cheapens the moment into a "faith based set of standards." The abstract notions of self worth are tedious at best to define, let alone work with. We are all limited in ways that make a mockery of our dreams and ambitions. Living with limitation is part of what defines us as human.
I'm still not so sure about Ben's Clown... Somehow, I can't see what sin is in this sense, or how it makes itself into a vehicle of internalized hatred and crushed ambition. Self-loathing is fairly straightforward, but I get the feeling there is more to these ideas than what is represented in the strip.
But, I'll shut up and wait to see what happens before I get too into this thread.
Noa
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Random George
- Regular Poster
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- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: Lawrence, KS, USA
I popped in to see how you all were doing...and I'm saddened.
My primary disagreement with Mr. Hayes' method of evangelizing is that it has consisted to this point of focusing on the negative aspects of a non-Christian lifestyle, and relied too heavily on proving others 'wrong' to be 'right'. So, instead of attacking other faiths, I see him making a positive statement based in his feelings about why he and Ben have made personal choices to be Christian. I'm impressed, because one man showing happiness and solace in his faith is worth a thousand men in the streets shouting out the evils of sin.
Comparisons to Jack Chick are incorrect, not because Mr. Hayes hasn't been a purveyor of hateful words and anger--which he has--but because Chick makes conversion by fear a major facet of his ministry. I've read Chick's tracts, and I check his website regularly, and the overwhelming message is 'Become a Christian to avoid the torments of Hell' as opposed to 'Become a Christian because it will bring you solace in times of sadness, because Christ will be strong for you when you feel weak, because it brings peace to your heart.' I'm sure Chick has said this somewhere, so don't bother me with links, but the fact that as a reader of the website and the tracts I came away with a message of hate and fear says to me that any casual observer is most likely to do the same.
Get off Mr. Hayes' case. He's trying to display the ways in which his personal faith has given him strength in his lifetime. He's presenting Christianity in a positive light, not attacking the atheistic, pagan, or non-Christian in general point of view. Let him do that in peace. So self-discovery bores you. I'm sorry, not my problem, not Mr. Hayes' problem. I personally read 'Boondocks' because it makes me think more than it makes me laugh. I read 'Doonesbury' for the same reason. I'm not afraid to be made to think.
So Hollywood never sends a message...Hmmm...someone wanted to send a message about AIDS, so they made 'Philadelphia', which made a lot of money and won a couple of little statues...someone wanted to send a message about standing up in the defense of others, so they made 'Schindler's List', which also made a lot of money and won a couple of little statues...others wanted to talk about war, so we got 'All Quiet on the Western Front' and 'Saving Private Ryan'. If you want to live a life of simple entertainment without ever being exposed to other peoples' opinions and thoughts...well, good luck with that. Or are you just saying that the only messages you're comfortable with having sent to you are ones you already agree with?
You don't want to be proselytized to about a faith you don't (BLEEP)-ing believe in? I'll take months of proselytizing by positive example over ever seeing another attack on other faiths. The most effective ministries, the ones that gain respect, are the ones that provide reasons to turn *to* Christ instead of reasons to turn *away* from another path. It's a subtle difference, and looks the same from the outside, but in the heart it's a world apart.
My primary disagreement with Mr. Hayes' method of evangelizing is that it has consisted to this point of focusing on the negative aspects of a non-Christian lifestyle, and relied too heavily on proving others 'wrong' to be 'right'. So, instead of attacking other faiths, I see him making a positive statement based in his feelings about why he and Ben have made personal choices to be Christian. I'm impressed, because one man showing happiness and solace in his faith is worth a thousand men in the streets shouting out the evils of sin.
Comparisons to Jack Chick are incorrect, not because Mr. Hayes hasn't been a purveyor of hateful words and anger--which he has--but because Chick makes conversion by fear a major facet of his ministry. I've read Chick's tracts, and I check his website regularly, and the overwhelming message is 'Become a Christian to avoid the torments of Hell' as opposed to 'Become a Christian because it will bring you solace in times of sadness, because Christ will be strong for you when you feel weak, because it brings peace to your heart.' I'm sure Chick has said this somewhere, so don't bother me with links, but the fact that as a reader of the website and the tracts I came away with a message of hate and fear says to me that any casual observer is most likely to do the same.
Get off Mr. Hayes' case. He's trying to display the ways in which his personal faith has given him strength in his lifetime. He's presenting Christianity in a positive light, not attacking the atheistic, pagan, or non-Christian in general point of view. Let him do that in peace. So self-discovery bores you. I'm sorry, not my problem, not Mr. Hayes' problem. I personally read 'Boondocks' because it makes me think more than it makes me laugh. I read 'Doonesbury' for the same reason. I'm not afraid to be made to think.
So Hollywood never sends a message...Hmmm...someone wanted to send a message about AIDS, so they made 'Philadelphia', which made a lot of money and won a couple of little statues...someone wanted to send a message about standing up in the defense of others, so they made 'Schindler's List', which also made a lot of money and won a couple of little statues...others wanted to talk about war, so we got 'All Quiet on the Western Front' and 'Saving Private Ryan'. If you want to live a life of simple entertainment without ever being exposed to other peoples' opinions and thoughts...well, good luck with that. Or are you just saying that the only messages you're comfortable with having sent to you are ones you already agree with?
You don't want to be proselytized to about a faith you don't (BLEEP)-ing believe in? I'll take months of proselytizing by positive example over ever seeing another attack on other faiths. The most effective ministries, the ones that gain respect, are the ones that provide reasons to turn *to* Christ instead of reasons to turn *away* from another path. It's a subtle difference, and looks the same from the outside, but in the heart it's a world apart.
"Twelve highlanders and a bagpipe make a rebellion"
-Scottish proverb
-Scottish proverb
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Kinsfire
- Regular Poster
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: Roselle, NJ USA
- Contact:
I find myself wondering if Ben is terrified of clowns?
I know people who can't stand clowns, because there's something scary about them. (To those people, that is.)
If Ben is one of those people, then that would explain why the self-destructive urge manifested as a clown.
As for the rest of the conversation? I'm staying out of it. Ralph knows that my religious views are different from his. But, I will say here publicly that I was actually happy to see Ben open his hand (paw?) and see that cross, because Ben's faith is a major part of him, and this shows that his self-destructive part isn't strong enough to REALLY hurt him, and that he'll come out of this basically okay, and maybe with a little more insight into himself. (And that's ALL I'm saying on the matter.)
Since I doubt I'll be posting again before Christmas, I'd like to take this time to wish everyone reading this a Merry Christmas, or a Blessed Yule, or even an enjoyable Agnostica, if you swing that way. It's a season for happiness, so may you find it in this season.
Kinsfire
I know people who can't stand clowns, because there's something scary about them. (To those people, that is.)
If Ben is one of those people, then that would explain why the self-destructive urge manifested as a clown.
As for the rest of the conversation? I'm staying out of it. Ralph knows that my religious views are different from his. But, I will say here publicly that I was actually happy to see Ben open his hand (paw?) and see that cross, because Ben's faith is a major part of him, and this shows that his self-destructive part isn't strong enough to REALLY hurt him, and that he'll come out of this basically okay, and maybe with a little more insight into himself. (And that's ALL I'm saying on the matter.)
Since I doubt I'll be posting again before Christmas, I'd like to take this time to wish everyone reading this a Merry Christmas, or a Blessed Yule, or even an enjoyable Agnostica, if you swing that way. It's a season for happiness, so may you find it in this season.
Kinsfire
Self-destruction
Note that IMHO having no will to live isn't the same as wanting to die, though the line can be fine...RHJunior wrote:the clown wants Ben to self-destruct... his particular method isn't so much to drive Ben to suicide as to *destroy his will to live.*
As any person who deals with the ill can tell you, that can be more fatal than a gunshot wound....Some of the stranger stories out there involve perfectly healthy people who literally willed themselves to death...
RDB
Redemption
Then you can't do others any good eithersun tzu wrote:Oh, and one last thing: What's the deal about not being {able} to redeem oneself? Now, I don't think I've ever done something really bad (possibly because I almost don't interact with people).
This is something I struggle with as I find myself becoming ever more reclusive Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of commission...
At the risk of sounding Chickian (?), God grades on a step-function, not a curve :|All my 'sins' are small stuff. If my good actions more than compensate whatever harm I have caused, why do you consider [that] I haven't 'redeemed' myself?
If he never accepted Christ, that's why he's in hell, sorry.[Please] note that with that logic, Gandhi hasn't redeemed himself either. What does the fact [that] he wasn't a Christian mean, in your opinion? Is he in Hell for destroying himself?
I doubt this qualifiedAny intelligent reply is welcome.
Ron
Redemption
Then you can't do others any good eithersun tzu wrote:Oh, and one last thing: What's the deal about not being {able} to redeem oneself? Now, I don't think I've ever done something really bad (possibly because I almost don't interact with people
This is something I struggle with as I find myself becoming ever more reclusive Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of commission...
At the risk of sounding Chickian (?), God grades on a step-function, not a curve :|All my 'sins' are small stuff. If my good actions more than compensate whatever harm I have caused, why do you consider [that] I haven't 'redeemed' myself?
If he never accepted Christ, that's why he's in hell, sorry.[Please] note that with that logic, Gandhi hasn't redeemed himself either. What does the fact [that] he wasn't a Christian mean, in your opinion? Is he in Hell for destroying himself?
I doubt this qualifiedAny intelligent reply is welcome.
Ron