Hrum, my topic appears to have turned into a flame war...
Vast apologies, I had to leave that week and so left my query to the mercy of the wind. Which proved thoroughly merciless, from the looks of it.
Although I am startled by the existance of people who think all Islam is evil..I'm sure my Persian friends would love to hear that rhetoric. (Orange County, lotsa Persians around here. Largest community in the nation, came over after the Shah puppet was deposed and replaced by the Cleric puppet. Shah's son doesn't live too far from where I sit now, actually.)
Islamic Radicalism (Better title than Earlier, certainly...)
Islamic Radicalism (Better title than Earlier, certainly...)
Last edited by Jachra on Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LoneWolf23k
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Well, my personal experience is that I've read a lot about how Islam is theoratically a peaceful religion that's tolerant of "people of the book" and encourages men to be respectful of women, even if women are told to "stay in their place".
...In practice, however, I've seen little evidence of Muslims being tolerant of christians and jews in lands where Islam is dominant. And considering the treatment of women in islamic countries tends to go from "you can have a job and express yourself, so long as it's within the limits of Shari'a law" to virtual enslavement of women..
...I want to believe Islam is a good religion.. ...But I'll have to meet a lot more good muslims to do so.
...In practice, however, I've seen little evidence of Muslims being tolerant of christians and jews in lands where Islam is dominant. And considering the treatment of women in islamic countries tends to go from "you can have a job and express yourself, so long as it's within the limits of Shari'a law" to virtual enslavement of women..
...I want to believe Islam is a good religion.. ...But I'll have to meet a lot more good muslims to do so.
Inequality is hardly unique to Islamic nations, all of which (unless I missed one, of course) are classed as developing. Developing nations have a historic tendency towards inequality, occasionally dating to or at least exacerbated by the assorted Imperialist eras (No, not a rant about Imperialism. Imperialism manages to speak for itself: It messed things up, nuff said, like the arbitrary classification of Hutus and Tutsies or the placing of a minority over a majority to assist imperial interests. There is, however, still a degree of human choice involved. Imperial stooges and their successors are still crooked men responsible for their own actions, not withstanding help received in the past.) (And yes, problems existed before Imperialism. Real historians will tell you that the Native Americans were not the bucolic Noble Savages they've occasionally been painted as, although they also point out that violence among them did increase with European influence, due to the presence of a new group of people competing for resources and existing as a source of wealth and new weapons (competition over trapping grounds was, reportedly, quite common) and that wars were occasionally encouraged and backed by foreign interests. Simple 'We put our needs over yours' philosophy that guides many nations, for obvious reasons.)
So far as I've seen, any nation ruled by theocracy goes funny. Look at the middle ages (no, not a rant against Christianity. Medieval Christianity, maybe.)
Modern islamic nations are little different.
Now then, try visiting a local mosque. Ask about services, they should be more than happy to accomadate you, help you participate, etc. In fact, I suggest this for anyone who believes Islam is evil...or anyone simply interested in learning.
So far as I've seen, any nation ruled by theocracy goes funny. Look at the middle ages (no, not a rant against Christianity. Medieval Christianity, maybe.)
Modern islamic nations are little different.
Now then, try visiting a local mosque. Ask about services, they should be more than happy to accomadate you, help you participate, etc. In fact, I suggest this for anyone who believes Islam is evil...or anyone simply interested in learning.
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Why, yes, the people I know and their families have been clean for the past fifty years, thank you for clearing that up. I'll judge them as decent people from their actions.
You're judging the whole by the extreme few. Most people want to live in peace, the zealot fervor only comes up once in many, even among the Islamic developing nations. For the whole, there's inequality, sure, but when you've grown up being told the world is one way, and your alternative means of knowledge are few in number, how are you going to act? When confronted in your old age, you'll dig in your heels, not wanting to believe otherwise, as it will call into question everything you've based your life around. Frightening prospects, that.
A handful of kids want to go around in black trenchcoats and shoot up children in schools, but does that mean all kids are violent monsters? A handful of adults want to do the exact same thing, come to think of it, but does that make all Americans monsters? The KKK butchered folks back in the day, but they hardly represent the mainstream opinion in this era. Are all Irish people evil because of the IRA's past actions? Or perhaps all Germans today because of the Nazis?
We're confronted with people who are in the deepest throes of religious faith, people who give up vast wealth or families or lives for an ideal, not the average every day Achmed on the street.
You're judging the whole by the extreme few. Most people want to live in peace, the zealot fervor only comes up once in many, even among the Islamic developing nations. For the whole, there's inequality, sure, but when you've grown up being told the world is one way, and your alternative means of knowledge are few in number, how are you going to act? When confronted in your old age, you'll dig in your heels, not wanting to believe otherwise, as it will call into question everything you've based your life around. Frightening prospects, that.
A handful of kids want to go around in black trenchcoats and shoot up children in schools, but does that mean all kids are violent monsters? A handful of adults want to do the exact same thing, come to think of it, but does that make all Americans monsters? The KKK butchered folks back in the day, but they hardly represent the mainstream opinion in this era. Are all Irish people evil because of the IRA's past actions? Or perhaps all Germans today because of the Nazis?
We're confronted with people who are in the deepest throes of religious faith, people who give up vast wealth or families or lives for an ideal, not the average every day Achmed on the street.
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StrangeWulf13
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Alright then, if these people you know are so peaceful, then tell me this...
Why the hell didn't they protest 9-11? Or the deaths of contractors in Iraq? Or terrorist attacks on England and Israel?
Why the hell aren't they marching on the streets, heads held high, signs in their hands, protesting the evil acts of "a few extremists" over yonder?
I can think of two reasons...
1.) Islam is not the religion of peace it claims to be, and they're in silent agreement and have lied to you.
or
2.) They're damn cowards who don't have the backbone to stand up to the terrorists, fearing their families and friends will be killed and tortured for protesting the actions of their fellow muslims, no matter how depraved.
If you can think of a third option, please give it. However, I do not think it would be as likely as the two I just listed...
Why the hell didn't they protest 9-11? Or the deaths of contractors in Iraq? Or terrorist attacks on England and Israel?
Why the hell aren't they marching on the streets, heads held high, signs in their hands, protesting the evil acts of "a few extremists" over yonder?I can think of two reasons...
1.) Islam is not the religion of peace it claims to be, and they're in silent agreement and have lied to you.
or
2.) They're damn cowards who don't have the backbone to stand up to the terrorists, fearing their families and friends will be killed and tortured for protesting the actions of their fellow muslims, no matter how depraved.
If you can think of a third option, please give it. However, I do not think it would be as likely as the two I just listed...
I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait. Thanks.
They fear they and their families will be tortured and killed, you say.
Just so. Why should they bend themselves over backwards for us, then? They have trouble enough surviving for themselves as it is in their miserable countries.
They have to choose who to protect: Us or their families. Why would they choose us over their families? Doesn't seem that surprising.
Does 'bravery' mean getting everyone you love killed? If it were just their own lives, then I'd agree.
Over here on our side of the pond, there was nobody more upset than my muslim friends. Not a one. They voiced their protests.
Of course, there are some...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184184,00.html
Here we have prominent religious figures beginning and participating in an Islamic protest against violence over the drawings of the Prophet Muhammed. In Afghanistan, no less.
http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/news/press ... rot082.htm
Protests by the Islamic Institute, the Islamic Supreme Council of America, and Arab Americans against the 9/11 and subsequent attacks.
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/April2006/Iran
This one is to demonstrate they're fully capable of peaceful action.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/25/muslim ... index.html
Efforts by muslim groups to reach out to youths and convince them their religion doesn't give them the justification for violence.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/ ... ainst.html
Protests in Morocco by Muslims against perverting Islam for violence.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/437
Discussion of radical and moderate Islam.
(Thanks to Lana for her help in finding evidence...she asked I give credit ;D)
Just so. Why should they bend themselves over backwards for us, then? They have trouble enough surviving for themselves as it is in their miserable countries.
They have to choose who to protect: Us or their families. Why would they choose us over their families? Doesn't seem that surprising.
Does 'bravery' mean getting everyone you love killed? If it were just their own lives, then I'd agree.
Over here on our side of the pond, there was nobody more upset than my muslim friends. Not a one. They voiced their protests.
Of course, there are some...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184184,00.html
Here we have prominent religious figures beginning and participating in an Islamic protest against violence over the drawings of the Prophet Muhammed. In Afghanistan, no less.
http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/news/press ... rot082.htm
Protests by the Islamic Institute, the Islamic Supreme Council of America, and Arab Americans against the 9/11 and subsequent attacks.
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/April2006/Iran
This one is to demonstrate they're fully capable of peaceful action.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/25/muslim ... index.html
Efforts by muslim groups to reach out to youths and convince them their religion doesn't give them the justification for violence.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/ ... ainst.html
Protests in Morocco by Muslims against perverting Islam for violence.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/437
Discussion of radical and moderate Islam.
(Thanks to Lana for her help in finding evidence...she asked I give credit ;D)
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LoneWolf23k
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They're called "benchwarmers," sweetheart.
Just because one muslim is a little lazier than another, doesn't make them ideologically different from the ones out in the field.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
You're not safe.
You're just lucky.
Just because one muslim is a little lazier than another, doesn't make them ideologically different from the ones out in the field.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
You're not safe.
You're just lucky.
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
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Namrepus221
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"The ridiculous amount of violence committed in the name of this religion is staggering."
(Note, this next part is only meant to balance.)
Yes, funny how I was comparing radical Islam to medieval Christianity earlier...if I replaced 'this religion' with 'Christianity' it would be exactly the same.
Shall I start a website linking primary documents of the Crusades, Inquisition, and Witch Trials/Hunting?
The Old Testament is about as bloody as it gets. You could go all out on that...
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/links.html
A horribly biased and slanted anti-Christian site.
The website views Islam in the exact same ignorant and limited light.
The links I provided ranged from the right (Fox) to the left (Amnesty) and even included the middle (CNN.)
(Note, this next part is only meant to balance.)
Yes, funny how I was comparing radical Islam to medieval Christianity earlier...if I replaced 'this religion' with 'Christianity' it would be exactly the same.
Shall I start a website linking primary documents of the Crusades, Inquisition, and Witch Trials/Hunting?
The Old Testament is about as bloody as it gets. You could go all out on that...
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/links.html
A horribly biased and slanted anti-Christian site.
The website views Islam in the exact same ignorant and limited light.
The links I provided ranged from the right (Fox) to the left (Amnesty) and even included the middle (CNN.)
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Wanderwolf
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Ralph, assume for the moment that your statement is true. That extremists of a religion are typical of that religion, and those who do not murder in the name of their religion are merely "lazier" than the others; that the reason they go through the lives they do, abiding by the law, is because they do not wish to put forth the effort to kill others, not because they do not wish to commit murder.RHJunior wrote:They're called "benchwarmers," sweetheart.
Just because one muslim is a little lazier than another, doesn't make them ideologically different from the ones out in the field.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
You're not safe.
You're just lucky.
By that standard, applied to Christianity, you and I (Christians both) are "benchwarmers" for such "noble" causes as the "Army of God". If the name's vaguely familiar, it's for the two "heroes" the Christian extremist movement spawned:
Eric Rudolph, a bomber who set off explosives at the New Woman All Women Clinic, Birmingham, AL; security guard Robert Sanderson, 35, an off-duty policeman, was killed; nurse Emily Lyons, 41, is now permanently disabled. Rudolph had previously bombed women's clinics and a lesbian nightclub, injuring several, and also bombed the Atlanta Olympic Games, killing one and injuring 100 with a 40-pound pipe bomb. (Mr. Rudolph has stated that the policeman deserved to die for bearing a weapon in defense of the "murderers" working in the building.)
Paul Hill, a former Presbyterian minister, who killed Dr. John Britton and his bodyguard, Air Force Col. (Ret.) James Herman Barrett with a shotgun. (He even aimed the shotgun directly at Barrett's head to get around the Kevlar.) (Dr. Britton replaced Dr. David Gunn, shot three times in the back while getting out of his car. Thus the bodyguard.)
According to your argument, Ralph, you and I are "benchwarmers" for this "team", as we have not shot people down like rabid dogs for our religion. Do you still wish to stand by your statements? Because if this is our team, I'm putting in for a trade.
Yours truly,
The logical,
Wanderer
The 'Turn or Burn' philosophy that leads people to such acts is still prevalent among some of our Christian brethren, indeed. A small minority, thankfully (I agree with WanderWolf. I don't intend on going out and converting the heathens by the sword or executing them out of hand,) just as the radical muslim is indeed that, a radical minority.
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It appears we have an ostritch among us.
Here's a nice little article on what the koran actually teaches: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SRamesh60415.htm
Pay attention to the second page where the author discusses the doctrine of abrogation.
Hers's one that illustrates the scope of the supposedly tiny minority of extremists: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BarbaraStock60208.htm
If you really want to understand Islam I reccomend spending a while on http://www.faithfreedom.org reading as many of the articles as you can stomach. The truth is there are no moderate muslims. They either support the destuction of everything not muslim or they are apostates. I challenge you to find similar unqualified calls to violence in the canon of any other extant religion. All military commandments in Judaism are strictly limited in scope and there are none in the Christian canon. Mormonism is without agressive tendencies as is Budhism. Only Islam is at war with the world.
Here's a nice little article on what the koran actually teaches: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SRamesh60415.htm
Pay attention to the second page where the author discusses the doctrine of abrogation.
Hers's one that illustrates the scope of the supposedly tiny minority of extremists: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BarbaraStock60208.htm
If you really want to understand Islam I reccomend spending a while on http://www.faithfreedom.org reading as many of the articles as you can stomach. The truth is there are no moderate muslims. They either support the destuction of everything not muslim or they are apostates. I challenge you to find similar unqualified calls to violence in the canon of any other extant religion. All military commandments in Judaism are strictly limited in scope and there are none in the Christian canon. Mormonism is without agressive tendencies as is Budhism. Only Islam is at war with the world.
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StrangeWulf13
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I'll concede the point that there are muslims out there who neither approve of nor support the terrorist attacks, and indeed even protest them. However, it seems they are a small group, and they do not get enough press coverage. It makes me wonder why that is; you'd think the MSM would be falling over each other to get an interview with these people.
However, I am not convinced they are the majority. In fact, I think the majority of muslims live overseas, in the Middle East or elsewhere. And since niether I nor you, Jachra, have been there, who are we to say what they are like? I know at least one person on this forum has been there, and has stated they are not polite to "infidels" in the countries where they are the majority, which are usually also the places they hold power in the government.
Of course, if you have indeed been there, then perhaps you can tell the rest of us what they are like in their "home countries". Me, I've never met a muslim to my knowledge, though there are some around here, and I've never been out of the country. There's my cousin, but wait, he converted to Christianity so he doesn't count. His own family disowned him for that.
What do I know? Well, I may not know what all muslims are like...
...but I only need to point to 9/11 to show what the terrorists are like.
And I really don't care if they're the soldiers for Islam's jihad against the world or a "radical minority" fighting under the influence of evil, twisted priests.
I don't care. Kill them all. Make them pay for our hurt, for our pain. Make them so damn afraid of us, just the appearence of an American soldier makes them wet their pants and run.
I want the terrorists dead so my future children can grow up in this great country, safe from evil men.
I want them dead. The rest is details.
However, I am not convinced they are the majority. In fact, I think the majority of muslims live overseas, in the Middle East or elsewhere. And since niether I nor you, Jachra, have been there, who are we to say what they are like? I know at least one person on this forum has been there, and has stated they are not polite to "infidels" in the countries where they are the majority, which are usually also the places they hold power in the government.
Of course, if you have indeed been there, then perhaps you can tell the rest of us what they are like in their "home countries". Me, I've never met a muslim to my knowledge, though there are some around here, and I've never been out of the country. There's my cousin, but wait, he converted to Christianity so he doesn't count. His own family disowned him for that.
What do I know? Well, I may not know what all muslims are like...
...but I only need to point to 9/11 to show what the terrorists are like.And I really don't care if they're the soldiers for Islam's jihad against the world or a "radical minority" fighting under the influence of evil, twisted priests.
I don't care. Kill them all. Make them pay for our hurt, for our pain. Make them so damn afraid of us, just the appearence of an American soldier makes them wet their pants and run.
I want the terrorists dead so my future children can grow up in this great country, safe from evil men.
I want them dead. The rest is details.
I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait. Thanks.
I beg your pardon, I've already acknowledged the threat and existance of radical Islam. If I was unclear, feel free to assume this is a clarification. I am not a fool who believes the United States launched 9/11, nor am I one who believes efforts should not be taken to annhilate them. I have seen absolutely nothing so far that convinces me that they are the norm, however, and have produced numerous examples of counter evidence.
I am not muslim, as I mentioned before, but I cannot let people misrepresent others so egregiously. Ignorance (forgive the term, it's the only one that applies) of this magnitude is dangerous, I can only be glad it represents a small slice of the world's opinion on Islam.
There is, however, plenty of violence in the holy books. See below for more data on what Jihad is.
By 'them,' who do you mean, precisely? Should I expect Death Squads to be searching through American communities in the near future if this sort of notion pans out? Do try to be specific when talking about near-genocide. I will, however, assume you mean pracitioners of radical Islam. I don't think anyone here is racist, and I hope I'm right.
Conversion resulting in family expulsion hardly sounds uncommon. I know if I converted to even something such as, say, Buddhism, I'd have a lot of hard talking ahead. Depends on how seriously your family takes certain aspects of religion. And also on how long ago this was.
As for his conversion to Christianity, don't immediately take it as an affirmation of superiority. People do convert from Christianity to Islam, after all.
Haven't been to the Middle East...yet, although I do hope so one day. I'm wholly convinced they're in control in places like Iran, majority or not. Regardless of who controls places like Iraq, I do believe that radical terrorists are at least at large. Out of the 1.6 billion or so adherents (and growing rapidly) worldwide, I still am not convinced they are members of this group. For the most part, other muslims in the afflicted countries are afraid for their loved ones. Muslims here participate in the armed services and battle their terrible brethren abroad.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-017.htm
(Islamic website connected to an Islamic university, answering the question of whether a Muslim may serve in a non-Muslim military force or not. The important concept is that they serve the cause of justice, no matter who it is against.)
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack/43 ... ns20.shtml
(Article on the loyalty of Muslim members of the military.)
And if you want to find out what muslims are like, I suggest you talk to them.
In defense of stated opinions, I offer...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/islam.shtml
...which reveals that our so called mujahadine are violating the rules of the violent aspect of Jihad (I say 'violent aspect' because Jihad also refers to a personal conflict with one's own personal religious doubt, and also a struggle to build a good muslim community.)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... had2.shtml
Reference on the Internal Jihad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... ndex.shtml
Link to both and mention of the third aspect of Jihad. (Note of interest, the internal Jihad is often refered to as the Greater Jihad.)
What we have here seems to be a classic case of misinterpreting, deliberately from the sounds of it, for one's own benefit.
Then again, many of these people are crazy as well as dedicated. The King Nut Osama himself may believe Allah chats with him at dinner and tells him what to do, for all we know.
http://www.masud.co.uk/
http://www.islamia.com/
http://www.understanding-islam.org/
Peruse these if you must. Sites from the other side of the field.
http://www.understanding-islam.org/rela ... p?catid=18
Even more information on Jihad.
I am not muslim, as I mentioned before, but I cannot let people misrepresent others so egregiously. Ignorance (forgive the term, it's the only one that applies) of this magnitude is dangerous, I can only be glad it represents a small slice of the world's opinion on Islam.
There is, however, plenty of violence in the holy books. See below for more data on what Jihad is.
By 'them,' who do you mean, precisely? Should I expect Death Squads to be searching through American communities in the near future if this sort of notion pans out? Do try to be specific when talking about near-genocide. I will, however, assume you mean pracitioners of radical Islam. I don't think anyone here is racist, and I hope I'm right.
Conversion resulting in family expulsion hardly sounds uncommon. I know if I converted to even something such as, say, Buddhism, I'd have a lot of hard talking ahead. Depends on how seriously your family takes certain aspects of religion. And also on how long ago this was.
As for his conversion to Christianity, don't immediately take it as an affirmation of superiority. People do convert from Christianity to Islam, after all.
Haven't been to the Middle East...yet, although I do hope so one day. I'm wholly convinced they're in control in places like Iran, majority or not. Regardless of who controls places like Iraq, I do believe that radical terrorists are at least at large. Out of the 1.6 billion or so adherents (and growing rapidly) worldwide, I still am not convinced they are members of this group. For the most part, other muslims in the afflicted countries are afraid for their loved ones. Muslims here participate in the armed services and battle their terrible brethren abroad.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-017.htm
(Islamic website connected to an Islamic university, answering the question of whether a Muslim may serve in a non-Muslim military force or not. The important concept is that they serve the cause of justice, no matter who it is against.)
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack/43 ... ns20.shtml
(Article on the loyalty of Muslim members of the military.)
And if you want to find out what muslims are like, I suggest you talk to them.
In defense of stated opinions, I offer...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/islam.shtml
...which reveals that our so called mujahadine are violating the rules of the violent aspect of Jihad (I say 'violent aspect' because Jihad also refers to a personal conflict with one's own personal religious doubt, and also a struggle to build a good muslim community.)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... had2.shtml
Reference on the Internal Jihad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... ndex.shtml
Link to both and mention of the third aspect of Jihad. (Note of interest, the internal Jihad is often refered to as the Greater Jihad.)
What we have here seems to be a classic case of misinterpreting, deliberately from the sounds of it, for one's own benefit.
Then again, many of these people are crazy as well as dedicated. The King Nut Osama himself may believe Allah chats with him at dinner and tells him what to do, for all we know.
http://www.masud.co.uk/
http://www.islamia.com/
http://www.understanding-islam.org/
Peruse these if you must. Sites from the other side of the field.
http://www.understanding-islam.org/rela ... p?catid=18
Even more information on Jihad.
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Wanderwolf
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I think he's talking about me, Jachra.
Also, talk to actual Muslims; empiric research at its finest. Assuming they're all liars is a fine example of prejudice.
Buddhist terrorists, Aum Shinrikyo (dispersed Sarin in the Tokyo subway during rush hour). (The beliefs do draw from Buddhism; also from Hinduism and Christianity, with a chunk of Revelations at the center.)
Mormon terrorist John D. Lee, leader and instigator of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, 9/11/1857, killing 120 men, women and children after "rescuing" them from his Indian allies.
Now for the "calls to arms":
Matthew 10:21-22: And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:34-39: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (KJV)
"After killing mother, father and two priestly kings, and killed a tiger as his fifth victim, the brahmin goes on his way
unperturbed." -- Dhamapada, Chapter 21 (The sayings of Buddha.)
You like? Before you scream, yes, they're taken out of context. So are the citations of the Qu'ran Osama and others use to justify their false jihad; Mohammed wasn't very nice, but Osama makes the Prophet look like Gandhi by comparison.
Terrorists have been around a long time... remember that next time.
Yours truly,
The intellectually-stimulated,
Wanderer
Wolf, thanks. Please check for a bushy tail next time.Atarlost wrote:It appears we have an ostritch among us.
He gave no citations behind the author, but I found it anyway: The quotes about jihad are from tafsir al-Baqarah, by Ibn Kathir. He overlooks, however, the description of the enemy against whom jihad is to take place: The enemy that decides "to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants". In other words, those who try to destroy Islam. (Tafsir al-Baqarah 2)Atarlost wrote:Here's a nice little article on what the koran actually teaches: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SRamesh60415.htm
Pay attention to the second page where the author discusses the doctrine of abrogation.
Interesting, but not much help for your case. Among the "extremists" she cites are the Muslim rebels of Darfur (currently engaged in fighting the Muslim government of the Sudan, with Osama's blessing), the Muslims of Norway (suing over having a leading politician trash-talk the Prophet in violation of the anti-blasphemy laws) and the Council on American-Islamic Relations (for writing a letter to the President, asking him to please stop calling Osama's bunch Muslims in his State of the Union Address).Atarlost wrote:Hers's one that illustrates the scope of the supposedly tiny minority of extremists: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BarbaraStock60208.htm
If you really want to understand Islam, I recommend doing actual research, rather than asking faithfreedom.org to spoonfeed you the information. Read the Qu'ran and the hadiths, and look at them with a critical eye; not all hadiths are reliable, as the question of Aisha's age should have told everyone.Atarlost wrote:If you really want to understand Islam I reccomend spending a while on http://www.faithfreedom.org reading as many of the articles as you can stomach. The truth is there are no moderate muslims. They either support the destuction of everything not muslim or they are apostates.
Also, talk to actual Muslims; empiric research at its finest. Assuming they're all liars is a fine example of prejudice.
I love a challenge...Atarlost wrote: I challenge you to find similar unqualified calls to violence in the canon of any other extant religion. All military commandments in Judaism are strictly limited in scope and there are none in the Christian canon. Mormonism is without agressive tendencies as is Budhism. Only Islam is at war with the world.
Buddhist terrorists, Aum Shinrikyo (dispersed Sarin in the Tokyo subway during rush hour). (The beliefs do draw from Buddhism; also from Hinduism and Christianity, with a chunk of Revelations at the center.)
Mormon terrorist John D. Lee, leader and instigator of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, 9/11/1857, killing 120 men, women and children after "rescuing" them from his Indian allies.
Now for the "calls to arms":
Matthew 10:21-22: And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:34-39: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (KJV)
"After killing mother, father and two priestly kings, and killed a tiger as his fifth victim, the brahmin goes on his way
unperturbed." -- Dhamapada, Chapter 21 (The sayings of Buddha.)
You like? Before you scream, yes, they're taken out of context. So are the citations of the Qu'ran Osama and others use to justify their false jihad; Mohammed wasn't very nice, but Osama makes the Prophet look like Gandhi by comparison.
Terrorists have been around a long time... remember that next time.
Yours truly,
The intellectually-stimulated,
Wanderer
I would like to point out that when one stops following Buddhism - that is, rejecting the teachings as a terrorist would - one stops being a Buddhist no matter one's claims.
The most important part is the conviction and dedication to the teachings. Not harming and preventing the harming of life is the very first of the Precepts, in fact.
Hell, I could declare myself one right now with the proper formal statement, but if I failed to be dedicated to the course, I would be lying.
Further, by your own statement, he only took inspiration from Buddhism, as well as other religions.
I've read some and seen some stuff on Aum...nutty doesn't even begin to cover him. He, however, was the god-figure.
I would call him a cult terrorist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinri ... rnal_links
I don't approve of using Wikipedia, but I have no real interest in looking up Mister Crackpot. And I used the directory to point to the External Links instead of the primary article, so with any luck they might be more valid.
(Also ringing in to change the title of the thread to something more appropiate. No objections, I hope? I felt it captured the essence of both sides while keeping the previous title around so as to avoid confusion.)
The most important part is the conviction and dedication to the teachings. Not harming and preventing the harming of life is the very first of the Precepts, in fact.
Hell, I could declare myself one right now with the proper formal statement, but if I failed to be dedicated to the course, I would be lying.
Further, by your own statement, he only took inspiration from Buddhism, as well as other religions.
I've read some and seen some stuff on Aum...nutty doesn't even begin to cover him. He, however, was the god-figure.
I would call him a cult terrorist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinri ... rnal_links
I don't approve of using Wikipedia, but I have no real interest in looking up Mister Crackpot. And I used the directory to point to the External Links instead of the primary article, so with any luck they might be more valid.
(Also ringing in to change the title of the thread to something more appropiate. No objections, I hope? I felt it captured the essence of both sides while keeping the previous title around so as to avoid confusion.)
(The (t) was included for the original spelling.) Disclaimer: I am not making fun of StrangeWulf13.StrangeWulf13 wrote:It appears we have an ostri(t)ch among us.
Very well, all yours then.Wanderwolf wrote:I think he's talking about me, Jachra.
PAX DRACONIS! Rar!
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Wanderwolf
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We have a winner!Jachra wrote:I would like to point out that when one stops following Buddhism - that is, rejecting the teachings as a terrorist would - one stops being a Buddhist no matter one's claims.
The most important part is the conviction and dedication to the teachings. Not harming and preventing the harming of life is the very first of the Precepts, in fact.
Hell, I could declare myself one right now with the proper formal statement, but if I failed to be dedicated to the course, I would be lying.
You're exactly right, Jachra; to become a terrorist in the name of a religion based on non-violence is itself an abrogation of that religion. The same goes for "Army of God", "al-Qaeda", "Taliban", and other such organizations. For such people, religion is nothing more than a robber's mask and a convenient excuse. And, after all...Aesop wrote: Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- "The Wolf and the Lamb"
The CDC has a much more comprehensive study of the cult at http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no4/olson.htm. A page more centered on Shoko himself is at http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia. ... /aums.html.Jachra wrote:Further, by your own statement, he only took inspiration from Buddhism, as well as other religions.
I've read some and seen some stuff on Aum...nutty doesn't even begin to cover him. He, however, was the god-figure.
I would call him a cult terrorist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinri ... rnal_links
I don't approve of using Wikipedia, but I have no real interest in looking up Mister Crackpot. And I used the directory to point to the External Links instead of the primary article, so with any luck they might be more valid.
No problems on this end.Jachra wrote:(Also ringing in to change the title of the thread to something more appropiate. No objections, I hope? I felt it captured the essence of both sides while keeping the previous title around so as to avoid confusion.)
Sakes, I didn't know you could even do that...Yeah, but I don't want himJachra wrote:(The (t) was included for the original spelling.) Disclaimer: I am not making fun of StrangeWulf13.StrangeWulf13 wrote:It appears we have an ostri(t)ch among us.Very well, all yours then.Wanderwolf wrote:I think he's talking about me, Jachra.
Just kidding; I'll enter the battle armed with my best researches and strongest Christian beliefs. 
Yours truly,
The wolfish,
Wanderer